E7: Welcome to the Thunderdome

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We are in the depths of summer here in the South. Kahlan and Taylor discuss some of the more commonly (and uncommonly) seen things that horses may be struggling with this time of year. From flies, to metabolic concerns, PPID, exercise, to preventative measures to support your equine friend through the depths of summer, AKA the thunderdome. Additional resources: Katy Watts' site on grass: safergrass.org Supportive article discussing role of exercise: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10931081/ Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoofcare Practitioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Equine Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook: The Red Mare Project Instagram: Wild_Hoof_Equine

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Welcome to the Thunderdome: Surviving Summer in the South

Surviving summer in the south is not for the faint of heart, especially when we have horses.

With summer comes an array of obstacles such as flies, sugars in the grass, the beginning of the ACTH rise, managing horses in extreme heat, all of it.

This extreme temperature swing we've had here in Georgia lately inspired us to unpack some of the things that can be major red flags for compromised horses and how we can avoid disaster.

It's management, management, management.

Hold on.

I can't reach.

I can't reach.

What the fuck?

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

We are in the Thunderdome.

I swear, just like July and August and a little bit of September, we just white knuckle our way through.

I'm a little nervous.

I'm in a new state.

I don't know how long.

Is this going to last longer here?

Because the heat is last longer.

I'm scared.

I don't know.

Are you closer to the equator, actually, in Houston?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, just because, yeah, because in Georgia, we were in North Georgia, so yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

I don't know how long.

I think you stay in summer.

Yeah, there's like a day of fall, and then it's really wet and cold for a month, and then it's just back to summer, which is great.

I mean, I love the heat.

I just don't love the risks that come with it.

I know.

I know.

And especially right now, this is when I feel like all the feet are just doing all the summer things, and that's just- Yeah, tell me.

All right, so there's a really big difference between summer feet and winter feet.

Now, if you're in an environment where the seasons are pretty much consistent, like if you're in South Florida, or if you're just close in general to the equator, you might not have that much variation.

But here in North Georgia, we do actually have true four seasons.

Fortunately, we don't go too deep into winter, but winter feet tend to do really, really well.

And then in the summer- I love winter feet.

Aren't they lovely?

They're so much easier.

They're just organized, they just have their shit together.

Yeah, they don't do much.

They don't, they just hang tight.

But the summer feet, those are the ones that tend to kind of pose a bit more of a challenge and maybe need a little bit more maintenance.

Okay, I know that's like a big topic.

So what- can you break it down for someone who doesn't necessarily know?

So some of the things that we're going to see in summer feet, you might see some changes in the foot in response to mud if we get excessive rain, some grass changes in the feet, which we're going to talk a lot about the impacts of grass.

We are just now starting in the seasonal rise for ACTH, which will impact that a little bit, so you might see some changes with that as well.

If you do have a horse that may be a little clinical in that world, the flies, I swear, are trying to kill us.

I never thought about that until I see every hoof care provider, well, in our circles, are really big cheerleaders for fly boots.

— Fly Management: Boots, Masks & the Case for Covering Up

Yes.

And I hate fly boots.

But I never thought about it.

I was always like, they're literally fine.

Like they're fine.

Yeah.

Like fly spray that might, because my horse, unless it's like a horse fly or something, he doesn't really get super annoyed with the flies.

So I was like, they're just going to trip on them.

They're going to get all of the pasture.

What's the big deal?

But now I get it.

Like it can help with pathology or prevent worsening of an issue, I guess.

Oh, totally.

Because you have to imagine if you have a horse that excessively stomps at flies, and you have two kinds of- Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Totally.

What happened?

Totally.

Because of their toes.

Sorry.

That's such a tad joke.

Well.

I'm leaving that in.

I'm not editing that out.

Even if you ask.

I'm leaving that in.

So I don't care.

So we have two types of fly stompers.

There's ones who smack their feet on the ground really hard, and then there's ones who just pick up their feet really fast and put them down gently.

So you have the one- Okay.

Right.

Which is, well, I don't know.

I've never thought about this in my life.

That's so cute.

Okay.

Well, it's weird.

This is my mare.

She doesn't stomp her feet.

She just picks them up really fast.

So her- They'll go away.

Yeah.

She's like, if I just pick it up fast, they'll go away, which is really nice.

But fly boots, they just help to reduce all the fly traffic on their feet.

So it reduces stomping.

And if you have a hard stomper, that's a lot of concussion on their legs.

So if you have a horse that might be getting a little idacy in the summertime, and we'll unpack this more in a minute.

But if you have a horse that's getting a little bit of idacy in there, and they're smacking their feet down, that's going to perpetuate the soreness.

Okay.

That's fair.

Right.

And yeah, it is important.

I just never thought about it, but maybe I should have.

Every time we talk, I have something new to be scared of.

I hate that I'm a nightmare now.

No.

I'm just well prepared.

Well prepared for all the scary stuff.

But yeah, so fly boots are a great way to just reduce the stomping.

And another thing I thought about was less sleep interruption.

Oh, that's such a good point.

Right?

No, that's good.

I've been struggling with that.

Like, Loki wasn't sleeping at the barn we just moved from.

Because the lights were on at night at the property.

And I didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, dude, I didn't know.

But then like a week in, the owner was like, yeah, this place is lit up like a Christmas tree.

And I was like, oh shit, no wonder why he's so dull and exhausted.

Oh my, you didn't tell me that.

That's a huge deal.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm also dull and exhausted because I've been stressed about it.

Wow.

I mean, that's like illegal now.

Like it shows they have to, it's lights out from noon, from midnight until like 5 a.m.

— Stabling & Turnout Strategies in Extreme Heat

I don't know.

Like he said it was safer for monitoring the horses.

And I was like, you don't need to like, but that's also his reason for keeping them in at night.

I mean, so, you know, we just have different philosophies and my horse said, this isn't for me.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

I'm like so hung up on that now.

Okay.

Yeah, I didn't realize I feel so bad.

He probably was like, he's so cranky.

He's exhausted.

And he's not a cranky, like he's so happy normally, but like a good quality sleep matters.

So reduce the flies, reduce the light.

They sleep best when they're, you know, able to do their regular herd behaviors, when they feel safe in the dark.

So we will talk more about that after we stop recording.

That is an off, off.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So you want to prevent stomping, and that's for horses that are like clinical and non-clinical, like it's just for comfort.

Yeah, because I mean, if you imagine they're just like sitting there stomping all day, they're gonna tear up their feet.

And that's usually why we see more chips this time of year.

True.

So, you know, I mean, if the diet is on point, chipping is going to be far less likely.

Yeah, I kind of forget that people struggle with that.

Yeah, if the diet is on point.

But that is a good thing to talk about.

Yeah, that's going to be far less likely.

So what else are you seeing like physically in the foot?

If they are having a grass response, we'll say this, or some type of, we'll say a sugar intake shift because of the grass.

You may see a little bit of a stretched white line.

If you see a big stretched white line, that's a big red flag.

And that's vet time.

But if your hoof care provider is noticing that, there may be a little thickening of the white line.

I'll say that.

That's a nicer way to put it, a thickening.

And a lot of folks will also start to see wall separation, where there's just little little crevices all along the white line.

If there's some wall separation in there, that can be from stomping.

And it can also just be from the grass response, from the sugar.

So is that always a metabolic response?

Not always.

It can be mechanical.

OK.

OK.

So like from improper movement or just like as their feet are growing in the cycle.

Like, I don't know enough about that.

Yes.

And yes.

Yeah.

So if their gate is doing something weird or if their loading is doing something weird, that can kind of create some space, you can say.

Weak spots?

Yes.

Let's go ahead and put it.

OK.

Or if they're on like a really, really dry, very arid, like if we're in one of our drought periods and they're also stomping at flies, sometimes little bits of sand can get like lodged in there and then it can just kind of...

You know, like little stuff.

Little stuff.

That feels like an abscess entryway. 100%.

OK.

Cool.

— Summer Threats: Bugs, Bots & What to Watch For

So just be afraid of everything.

Awesome.

So, stretch in a stretch-wide line while separation.

Can you talk about, you had, we, in our last conversation, we had talked a little bit about cringe effect, and I actually may send you pictures of Loki's feet later because I still don't, I'm not familiar with that.

Can you explain that?

So that kind of goes a little bit more into the world of, dare I say, laminitis.

So just as like a brief, before we get into that, so the lamina is essentially the soft tissue that holds the coffin bone in place, it suspends it in the capsule.

We're just going to leave it at that.

There's so much more to it than that, but we're going to leave it at that.

And they're little, they're essentially like little velcros, the lamina.

When those become inflamed, that's itis, that's your laminitis.

So since we're not veterinarians, we can't and don't diagnose that.

We just say if we notice anything that's like inflamed, we might just call it itis.

Scraminitis.

Scraminitis, because you shall not be named, right?

So if you have a horse that might have been experiencing like chronic, like low burn subclinical laminitis, where it's just like, you could almost not...

Something's not right.

Yeah, yeah.

Or like it's almost the equivalent of like, just a little headache for a long period of time.

It's a lot bigger than that.

But if I'm just trying to like, you know...

Story of my life, sister.

If we're just trying to like anthropomorphize it a little bit, it's just it's a slow burn inflammation.

That's your subclinical.

And if that persists for an extended period, you might see what's known as like a cringe effect, where the capsule itself actually starts to shrink down at the bottom.

So it's usually if you're looking at a foot, there's a tapering to where it creates not a flare, but it's a little bit larger at the bottom than it is at the hairline.

Or yeah, larger at the bottom.

Yeah.

So there's a small taper.

Okay, so a cringe effect, reverse that.

So it's wider at the hairline.

And then the actual footprint is smaller.

Does that make sense?

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So, but not necessarily just at the heel, like the entire, like, cause I'm picturing that as like when their heels get all collapsed.

They can, and they usually do cause they're contracted in that period, but almost envision like a donkey foot.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So that's chronic.

That's like a really loud example.

That's like a big one.

Yeah.

That's a loud example of it.

But if I see a foot that has event lines, if I see a foot that has what we call angry hairs at the coronary band.

So typically the hairline, the hair at the coronary band, it should lay nice and flat, almost like a 90s bowl cut.

Yeah, just relaxed.

Right?

We all love that kid from the 90s bowl cut.

For some reason, that was the thing for a while.

But then if there is angry hairs, that's when they start to like spray out, almost as if we, you guys remember when guys used to spike their hair?

— Sweet Itch & Insect Hypersensitivity in Horses

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like that.

So the spike- But it's just doing that.

It's just doing that.

Yeah.

So the spike is bad.

The spike means that there's a degree of inflammation in there.

That's so interesting.

You had taught me that a couple of months ago, and I was like, oh, that's crazy.

So it feels like there's like little, like one point here, one point here, one point for angry hairs, one point for maybe turning a little bit tighter, and all those can add up to pretty big warning signs, right?

In my book, yes.

And I think for most Hoofcare providers who are in our progressive practitioner world, these are all things that we really keep a close eye on, because you just mentioned like turning with less confidence.

And you were the one that pointed that out to me, that was like the way that just watching them turn and watching their neck.

I remember you mentioned that and I was like, that's...

Yes.

They like brace in a, they brace.

Like, you know, if you're watching a horse, especially in slow motion, if you're watching them walk really confident and relaxed, the bottom of their neck, like almost before their chest is like squishy.

And when they're in that subclinical discomfort, they brace right there, like almost right at their boobies.

They brace right there for the pain.

And they just kind of, it's just so much less fluid.

And it's really like, my horse has a super long body and a long neck.

And so it's really easy to see those little tiny movements, a shorter, like, cobbier type.

You may not notice it as much.

But like, especially horses, like non-trotting horses, like gated horses that are just kind of like noodly, you can really tell.

That's such a good point to bring up the difference in size.

Like, if you're watching a pony do it, it might be, it's gonna be much more subtle as opposed to a really long skeleton horse.

Yeah, because they're already like, choppier in general.

But a horse that kind of moves like a snake normally, all of a sudden they're bracing in their armpits or in their neck.

That's super obvious.

That's a good thing to bring, that's a good thing to mention.

Oh, oh, oh.

No, I have something super important that I want to talk about from personal experience, professional experience.

And I want to, I want Taylor to kind of touch on it.

If your horse is never sore after a trim, and then all of a sudden they walk off lame from a trim, please don't blame your farrier.

Communicate with them and tell them something's different.

They're not blaming your horse.

I promise you, I mean, maybe there's one or two of them out there.

I don't know them, but for the most part, they're not psychopaths that are coming to hurt your horse and make them lame.

— Hoof Care in Summer: Farrier Visits & Seasonal Changes

They're not like obsessed with trimming toes off.

I promise.

I promise you they're not.

So communicate, because I know like from personal experience, not being a hoof care professional, literally one or two swipes of a rasp can make the difference in a horse that is subclinical.

And that's super, super valuable information for both you and your farrier.

I love you so much.

Thank you.

That is such a good point.

And that's like, this is kind of the big time of year, July and August, where just like what Kahlan said, like even just like the swipes of the rasp, if you have a foot that's already compromised, just those vibrations can be enough to tip the scale.

And it's like, just talk to us.

If that happens, just like what you said, like that is essential information, because that can tell us like, okay, well, guess what?

It's August 17th, and your horse got sore.

Guess what we're right on the bridge of?

Yeah, like we're gonna need, this is starting to test for Cushing's time.

Like, we're in the natural seasonal rise of ACTH.

And if a horse is gonna be triggered, even if they're not necessarily metabolic, they don't have, you know, a lot of these red flags, if they have any chink in their armor, it's gonna show now.

Exactly, exactly.

So if you have a horse that's otherwise controlled, and we'll get back to what we mean by controlled in a minute, but if you have a horse that's controlled and then all of a sudden, your horse has been wonderful for the past, like, what, 10 months, and then now there's one trim that tips the scale, you need to talk to your fair, you need to talk to your hoof care provider, because they're immediately, that can definitely be some really helpful clinical information to where you can get ahead of something that can be a lot scarier.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, right now, I've been doing Loki's Feet, and I count every swipe.

Oh, bless it.

So, love that.

I know that's so silly.

No, it's not.

Because I don't, I may not know the difference.

So, like, if I say, okay, I always do Mondays.

So, this Monday, I did 15 swipes, and they looked amazing, they looked perfect, and I did a really good job.

And then the next time I do 15, and he's like, ooh, spicy.

I'm going to know the difference.

Like, I'm going to know, I won't question myself, and be like, oh, did I take too much?

Because I'm not a professional.

So, did I do it wrong?

I can know certainly that I didn't do something different.

There's another factor that's causing an issue, which, thank God, knock on wood, it's been going really well.

I think that's such a great idea to count the swipes of your ass.

And I remember even, like, when I first started doing, like, direct gluing, I would do the same thing, where I would count the amount of pumps of glue that I would put for the application for balance and equivalency.

— Glue-On Shoes, Hoof Hardeners & Summer Hoof Management

And that was always, like, a really helpful tool.

So that's a great idea that you're doing that.

And then, no, that's good.

I love that.

And, like, then you can just better know how to support him.

That's it.

Yeah, and just get crazier and crazier every day.

So, actually, before we move on to the big girl stuff, I didn't want to mention mud, too, because I just moved my horse two days ago to, like, the muddiest place on the planet, and I'm not actually that worried about it.

But I do want you to talk about, like, risks of mud, things that you're seeing in the feet that are different because of mud, because I want to know personally.

I hate mud.

That's pretty middle of my feelings on it.

I hate it.

So the wet, dry, wet, dry, wet, dry, or chronic wet is probably one of the most harmful things to their feet.

And it just, I've watched it, thin soles.

That scares me.

It's not great, but he's good.

Don't worry, you're so on top of everything, he's good.

But I've watched mud, thin soles.

And it's really interesting because I can, if I have a foot that comes in and it grew an excessive amount of bar, like really tall bar, and I...

Uh-huh, trying to get away from the mud.

It's, yeah.

So the bar is essentially building an extra support to lift the foot out of the mud, which sounds really weird, but that's what it's doing.

So if I have a foot that comes in and it has more bar than usual and it's like, oh, well no, it's been raining excessively, there you go.

Mm-hmm, that's why.

Yeah.

That's a little scary.

The best thing you can do for your horse's feet is to keep them dry.

There are moments where it's appropriate to have a little bit of softening, but for the most part, the rule is keep them dry.

But not just chronic mushiness.

Yeah.

If you do need a little bit of variety, if you're in a really arid area or if you're in a deep drought, overflow the water trough so you have that little mud that they can just soften a little bit.

A little bit of squish, yeah.

That's perfect, yeah.

Yeah.

I guess that's easy for us to say because we're in the south and the southeast.

I'm in the east of my state, like right near the Gulf of whatever you want to call it.

We get a lot of wetness.

Yeah.

It is moist in Georgia.

It is goopy and wet and winter is wet.

I noticed a difference this week because it was raining so much this week, from last week when my actual swipes were so much easier.

Yeah.

I was like, oh shit, like, whoa, his foot is so soft.

I normally wouldn't notice it other than like, okay, yes, it's wet.

It's like physically wet when I'm holding it, but like I can feel the softness.

Yeah.

Trims.

Which is a little startling.

Trims are much better.

And I bet you're going through rasps too.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Your operating cost goes up a little bit.

I will say I do appreciate the grinder when their feet are that hard.

— Hard vs. Soft Feet: What Summer Does to the Hoof

Manual trims on soft feet are delightful.

Yeah.

But hard, nice and easy.

Yeah.

All right.

So let's get into the why.

The scary stuff.

Yeah.

Let's get into the why.

So we talked about grass.

We talked to, or we talked about mud.

We need to talk about grass.

Mud, we don't like.

Get them off mud.

Oh, actually, this is a good time to mention for mud control.

Have you seen those mud control maps?

Oh, like the grids?

Yes.

Yes, they're amazing.

Oh, I have a client that got them, and it is just, the difference is unbelievable.

Really?

Okay, so there's, it's kind of like that, where I just moved in the driveway.

I think they're mostly using it to keep the gravel from floating away, because we're like 100 yards from a bayou.

But they're really cool, and it's like, it keeps the whole area really flat, like very even throughout.

So I imagine that's like an expensive thing to do.

But if you own your own property, it may be worth looking into.

They're pretty cool.

I will say, everyone I know who's gotten them, or at least done it like in a small area, it's worth every penny.

Because once you're traipsing through that stuff in and out constantly, like, it's fatigue.

I mean, it is.

Well, and like, as someone with tendonitis and a horse with tendonitis, potentially, we don't really know, it is a lot of work on your feet and your ankles to try to like stabilize in that slippery mud.

So it makes it easier on them, like in every way.

Oh yeah.

And then there's skin.

Oh, we could go on about this.

Yeah.

Anyway, so the topic of the conversation is fuck mud.

Fuck mud.

Now we can, let's move on to the scary stuff.

So if you're seeing these things, not only do you need to involve your failure, but you may need to involve a nutritionist or a veterinarian.

Yeah.

Or if you're really stuck, if your environment, not or, and, and, if your environment is really problematic, you may need to look into the, perhaps like a horticulture, a grading company, things like that.

Just if you need a facelift on your property, sometimes it's worth it.

I know it's an expense, but in the long run, you will be so grateful, because all the bills- You'll save on vet bills, for sure.

Yeah, and hoof care.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It feels like really counter, counter to what we want, but I'm sorry, kids, you can't have, for the most part, having that lush, beautiful meadow pasture is not, is not it.

It's just not it.

Like, there is nothing sexier than a dry lot farm.

Or track.

Or a track.

But yeah, grass too, very enthusiastic.

Thumbs down.

Let's talk about grass.

Let's talk about grass.

So the reason that right now, we call it the Thunderdome is not just because of the natural hormonal rise, it's because the grass actually is behaving a little bit differently because of the heat.

So the longer, I'm going to make it real simple.

Just remember this, the longer the grass is exposed to the sun, the higher in sugar it is.

— Grass & Sugar: The Rule About Sun Exposure

Boom.

Easy peasy.

So, in an ideal world, that means all our horses go out in the middle of the night and come in around mimosa time at brunch.

The best time.

Yeah, right?

You have two mimosas go get your horse.

And they either go on to a dry lot or they, you know, if they are clinical, maybe they have to go into a stall, which I really don't prefer, but your safest time for grass is when it's sleeping, because it's really not sleeping.

So usually like in the evening, I just call it the witching hour, which technically is, it's three o'clock, right?

Three o'clock in the morning.

Three a.m.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the witching hour.

So I love that our timestamps are the witching hour and brunch or like mimosa 30.

Yeah.

Mimosa 30, it's easy to remember.

You know?

I don't even like mimosas, but it's just like the novelty, the idea of like, I know, I know.

It's so much sugar for me, which is ironic.

It's so much sugar.

Being so for real right now, girl.

I know.

I know.

I'm so fragile to sugar.

I swear.

I'm.

Well, you can't exactly have joint soreness because you need to do your job.

So I get it.

Man.

I can afford a little bit of knee pain after some mimosas.

You got to treat me like a little metabolic at risk pony.

That's me.

She's just a cob.

I'm just a cob.

Oh, shit.

Okay.

So say we don't have that option because I recognize, in the real world, most people don't own their own farm.

Most of the time, people are boarding and they can't get their horse out at 2 AM or 3 AM and then bring them in at brunch 30.

It's not an option.

Some options that you have if you're trying to get your horse off the grass, even if it's just for an experiment.

Like even if you're a paranoid helicopter mom, you see your horse turned a little tight one day and you just want to make sure that it's not the grass, good for you, first of all.

But a muzzle is going to be your best friend.

Yes.

A dry lot with, if they're clinical soaked hay, if they're not, then just good quality tested hay is fine.

For those hours of the day, they're also probably going to thank you because then they're not out during the heat of the day, which can be beneficial for some.

Yeah, I mean, I myself have a pink nosed boy and I really, like, he hates sunscreen, but I hate skin cancer more.

So, you know, bringing them in, in the heat of the day, letting them out once it starts to cool down, may be your best option.

Can you talk a little bit about your hay soaking protocol?

And also, since you mentioned, I would love to also touch on sunburn.

I would love to hear your protocols on both of those.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to it.

Just, yeah, there's just some, like, management stuff in summer that takes a whole team.

So, for soaking hay, if you have a pathological horse, you have a laminitic horse or a PPID horse that you're just being extra good about their management or a horse that has a history, first of all, we want you to be on, we want you to be using tested hay.

— Hay Soaking: When, Why & How to Do It Right

Talk to a nutritionist.

I'm always going to plug that.

But if that's not an option, or in the meantime, what you can do is weight your hay.

Most horses need 1.5 to 2% of their body weight in forage every day.

So, weigh your hay, feed your pony.

If they're not trying to lose weight, then you can, I like horses to have hay all the time.

So, I don't really, like, right now, my horse can, he needs to gain a little bit of weight, so I'm not weighing his hay.

I'm just making sure he always has it.

Cool, cool.

But for soaking, if you're trying to get those water-soluble carbohydrates out and bring the sugar down in whatever hay you are using, it's super easy.

Just get a giant bucket from Tractor Supply, like a muck bucket.

Put your hay in a small hole hay net.

Also, those are a pain in the ass, but you got to do it.

If you don't have a lot of time, because we're horse people and we usually don't, we're usually running around late for something.

Use hot water.

Always.

Always late for something.

Always.

Half an hour in hot, hot water is the quicker protocol, but just make sure it's super, super important before you actually hang it and give it to your horse.

It absolutely must be rinsed off.

Shake it out, like just fluff it.

Make sure it's nice and rinsed.

And then that water that you just had it soaking in, that's now Hummingbird food, okay?

That's like pure sugar.

That is the stuff that you tried to get out.

So don't go toss it in the pasture.

Don't go put it in the water trough.

Don't go, make sure it's not accessible to your horse.

Have you, no, it's a poke fun.

Have you had someone feed it to a horse?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, not cute, not cute.

Don't reuse it.

Don't make it accessible to animals.

Don't go pour it on the grass where the horses then are grazing all day.

No, no, just please God, don't do that.

If you don't have hot water or you just are going to be at the barn for a while and you have the time, cold water is perfectly fine.

It's just the same protocol.

It's longer, so you just do at least an hour, rinse it off, hang it, throw the water away.

Gorgeous.

Now you've made diet make.

Gorgeous.

You picked out the calories.

Yeah, and then now it's less dusty too, which is cool, because let's be real, hay can be dusty.

Oh, that's great.

And then what was the other thing you asked?

Skin.

Oh, sunburn.

Yeah.

So.

I know.

Okay.

It's close to home.

Yeah, it's really hard.

Thank God she says that, and it's because I have a pink horse, not because I have a skin cancer horse.

I do everything I can to prevent it.

If you have a horse with heterochromia, one blue eye, one brown, or just a blue eyed horse, unless they have eyeliner, like black eyeliner around their whole eye, they are, that skin is a lot more sensitive.

— Sun Sensitivity: Blue Eyes, Pink Skin & UV Protection

So they can get sunburn there.

They can turn into skin cancer.

Every single time we are exposed to the sun, it is damaging to our skin.

I like to tan, but it's not really good for you.

So if you have a horse that, even if they're not dealing with any hoof issues, if you do want to be super extra careful, like you have a Perlino or even just a horse, like older horses that have little white noses too, if you were very concerned, the best thing you can do is get them out of the sun.

So the protocol is pretty much the same from the witching hour to Mimosa 30, if you want to memorize it that way.

So it's the same as the grass.

If not, they make a lot of really good quality UV protecting fly masks.

If your horse is cool and not a douche, then we'll leave it on.

I said Slurkey won't keep his clothes on.

Okay, so I own seven fly masks.

I have a system.

I own seven fly masks.

I've had him his entire life.

My system is I own seven of them because every day he takes one off and hides it, or he'll hang it on the fence.

If it's not a hot fence, which I don't like hot fences, he'll actually find a place to hang it so it's not on the ground, which is very considerate, very sweet.

That's thoughtful.

I just let him hang up his clothes, and on the last day of the week that I'm there, I collect all of them, clean them off, and put them back on.

He doesn't like the ones...

Thank you.

He doesn't like the ones with ears, and he doesn't like the ones with a nose, which is a problem because his nose is pink.

So here we are talking about horses that are at risk for skin cancer, little pink noses.

Absolutely, especially pink noses on otherwise fleabit gray horses.

They are the most likely to get skin cancer.

I'll see if I can find a paper for it.

That's just a fact that I know.

I don't know why.

I don't know the research behind it, but we can look it up because it's a pretty well-established thing.

I'm pretty sure.

We'll look it up.

There's actually...

Ukeel, I never know how to say it.

I saw Ukeel.

Ukeel.

But I've heard Ukeel.

Ukeel is cute.

I know someone who says Ukelele.

They have a cool product that's called Grey Horse Defense.

I actually was going to look into it because I would imagine that Grey Horse Defense is just a bunch of antioxidants that help defend against DNA damage.

That feels like it makes sense.

So I'm actually, when we get off the phone or when we're done recording, I'm going to look that up because that may be a really good option.

No, we're doing it right now in real time.

I'm not going to edit it out because this is cool.

Okay, awesome.

So while she types, the other thing that's super important is zinc oxide, topical zinc oxide, Desitin, baby butt cream, Boudreaux's butt paste, all those things.

It has to be at least 20 percent, otherwise you're wasting your money.

— Zinc Oxide & Sunscreen: What Actually Works on Horses

Desitin brand, I know is 40 percent, but there's also one that I get on Amazon that's 20 percent, and it doesn't have a scent, so he tolerates it much better.

Slather it all over their pink spots.

It protects against the sun.

It can heal, it heals really well, actually, sunburn.

So like if they're starting to get like bubblies or any kind of like scabies, it'll soften that up, protect from the sun, and it's super, super soothing.

So they hate it, but that is my weapon against skin cancer.

Gorgeous.

Okay, so we have, oh, go ahead.

Don't put, I forgot, don't put human sunscreen on them, please.

Because you have to reapply like every 30 minutes for it to be affected and that's not realistic.

And then when you do go to reapply it, it stains.

If you've ever been at the pool too long, forgot to reapply sunscreen if you're a Taylor bear skinned person.

When you go to reapply it, it hurts like hell.

It's really spicy.

So do that thick zinc oxide goop and you're good to go.

I had one client who did, it was baby sunscreen, which I'm assuming would be the same.

It's probably just zinc oxide.

Probably so.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I found it.

It's not, it's from, it's called Smart Gray.

So it's from SmartPak, change your name to SmartEquine.

And I swear, it's just like Rolex, when Rolex renamed to like Land Rover, like no one's going to call it SmartEquine.

No one's going to call it that.

No one's going to call it that.

It's just dead.

It's so true.

Okay, no, I know what Ukelele makes one, but read me what's in the other one, because I don't know about it.

Let's talk.

All right, so yeah, it's the same thing.

It's your horse's large, your skin is the horse.

Oh my God, Taylor can't read.

Okay, first, it's for skin.

It's just thin.

Jesus Christmas, Taylor.

Okay, so let's see.

Bitter melon extract, it has spirulina.

Cool.

Green tea extract.

Spirulina.

Yeah.

Oh, actually, let's do a quick plug for spirulina.

If your horse is itchy in the summer, 40,000 milligrams of spirulina has been like the best thing ever for summer itchy.

And so we've been like- It made a huge difference with her.

Holy moly.

Like her brain came back online.

I think she was so itchy she couldn't think.

Girl, that's how I am.

Okay, so it looks like they used to make gray horse defense and now they don't.

But I know that Ukeel started selling all their products on SmartPak.

So maybe they just moved over to a SmartPak product.

Yeah.

But yes, she was- I mean, I feel that, Leah.

When I'm itchy, John makes me feel like a crackhead because he's like, you are insane.

Like, you have to sit on your hands.

You can't do this.

Because I will scratch my skin off.

It's miserable.

And I am not friendly.

Oh, bless you.

Yeah, I think we all gotta get on some spirulina.

But yeah, it's got green tea extract, astral real astathaxin.

— Supplements for UV Protection & Skin Support

Did I just say that right?

Astaxanthin.

What is that?

It is another antioxidant.

I think it's naturally found in shrimp.

Interesting.

Let me.

That's like the, is that you find it most in nature, I believe.

Okay.

It's got glutamine in it, which we love.

Oh, glutamine.

Yeah, glutamine is what's up.

And then astragalus.

Cool.

Did I say that right?

Oh, look at the hooked on phonics coming in.

All right.

Cool.

Yeah.

So if you have a gray horse or just, I guess anything that's sensitive to the sun, is that what you're suggesting?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And honestly, I'm not plugging this.

I mean, I am on record, but I don't know this forever, for real, for real.

But I'm going to look into that product and see if the antioxidant doses are high enough to be just used as a good overall antioxidant for Thunderdome time.

It might be, man.

Because that was another thing.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

That's so much easier than trying to get individual ones to keep your horse comfortable.

Antioxidants are some of your greatest defense against the damage that's happening at this time of year.

Yeah.

Without it being an anti-inflammatory, they're actually calming down that stress of free radicals.

Free radicals are basically toddlers when they need a Snickers.

They're unstable molecules that cause inflammation by just kind of bouncing around and doing cell damage.

They're missing an electron.

So that's why I say they're like someone that has Snickers.

What antioxidants do is come in and they donate an electron to those unstable molecules.

They say, hey, hey, hey, calm down.

Stop punching holes in the walls.

Here's an electron.

Chill the hell out.

Everything's going to be okay.

Just give it a Snickers.

Yeah.

You're not you when you're hungry.

You're a free radical when you're hungry.

That is excellent.

You're not you when you're hungry.

Yeah.

When they're getting that extra damage from lots of sugar or from the sun, from all the things that we're experiencing right now in the Thunderdome, instead of reaching for pharmaceuticals, just bump up their nutrition profile with a cocktail of antioxidants, and you're going to really be making a huge difference.

I mean, with resveratrol in particular, we lean on it heavily.

Nutrition consultants and farriers, that's our favorite treat for this time of year, from August to mid-October, late October.

That's a must-have.

It makes a huge difference.

I have quite a few horses too, like leaning on resveratrol, because I'll have some that just have grass sensitivity, and I think this is a really good time to plug in.

Like, you can have a horse with perfect labs, absolutely perfect labs, and they are still grass-sensitive.

Breach, I mean, me.

Yeah.

Breach.

Yeah.

Loki's numbers were completely fine, but he's so sensitive.

He's so grass-sensitive.

Can't do it.

He can have some bites as a treat if we're exercising, but other than that, like, you just can't do it.

— Muzzles, Grazing & Managing the Metabolic Horse

Sorry, kids.

Like, I know as horse girls, we picture our horses running through a field, fat, grazing on, like, the world's prettiest grass, but for most people, that's not reality.

Yeah.

And that's where, like, Resveratrol comes in and is so, so helpful to them.

And I feel like everyone says it so differently.

Well, you'd be saying that.

Gioculin.

And you say it.

How do you say it?

Gioculin.

You say it so nice.

So if you, and I'm going to cheat.

I'm going to out myself right now.

If you go to Mad Barn, which is, like, the cheapest, high-quality dose, like, the scoop is the dose for horses, they actually tell you how to say it.

Oh, they do?

Yeah.

Tomato, tomato.

Who are you?

Tomato, potato.

We don't need to get too technical.

You guys know.

Everyone just says J-Urb anyway, but.

The first time, you and I were working on a Foundered Horse case together.

Yeah.

And you had said that, and I was like, what the fuck is she, what?

I didn't know, I'd never heard anyone call it that before.

Oh, God.

And I was like, who?

J-Who?

And then I saw your write-up, and I was like, oh shit, juggling, okay, got it, got it, got it.

It's like when you hear someone say respiratory instead of respiratory, and you're like, is there a whole other system?

Respiratory disease.

It's cervical, it's not cervical.

Taking us back to what we do for maintenance.

So we said we love dry lots, we love testing and soaking our hay, resveratrol, J-Urb.

Another thing that's a huge thing that's going to be a significant help, not letting your horse get overweight, but talk to me about- Prehab, prehab, prehab.

Talk to me.

Say it.

Let's go, Mr.

Taylor.

I'm going to get it.

I'm going to put this on your headstone.

You die.

I'll fight your husband over it.

Prehab is better than rehab.

Oh, it's already there.

He won't challenge.

It's already there.

Yeah, it's in the will.

It's in the will.

What we mean by that is the best thing that you can do is prevent this from happening.

Obviously, genetics time, your horse's history, there's no perfect situation, but exercise makes a huge difference, you guys.

I think the study that I like to look back on was with nine horses, no, it was seven horses, seven mares, and they did tests on their insulin before and after a regimen of exercise for a certain amount of days.

It helps so much.

I'm not going to quote it because I'm not going to be one of those people that spreads misinformation.

We're just going to link it.

You can read it because I actually think Mad Barn has the full thing.

You don't have to pay for it because I know I've read the whole thing.

Nine days after they concluded the study and stopped the exercise program, their insulin spiked right back up.

That's insane that it's that fast.

Then the impact of exercise.

Yeah.

It's not just for weight management, which obviously that is a very obvious important thing.

— Exercise & Metabolism: More Than Just Weight Management

But if horses are using what we're feeding them, their hormones are going to be more balanced.

Don't forget insulin is a hormone.

Yeah.

They're going to become more sensitive to insulin because they're going to be needing to use what's going through their system to be able to maintain that level of movement.

And this is also another good time to mention, if you do have a horse that's overweight and you are trying to get them to lose weight, please do not do calorie restriction to the point of starving.

I've seen so many people just put a horse in a dry lot and just leave them.

And I'm like, has anyone seen The Biggest Loser and What Happened to These People Metabolically?

We're actually watching the docu- I've never seen it.

Oh my God.

They're doing a docu-series right now on Netflix because apparently that's all we watch are documentaries.

But it's about what happened to these people metabolically afterwards.

If you do crash dieting, you trash your metabolism.

And it's not genuine loss.

No.

It's bad news bears.

Don't do it.

It's bad.

It's bad news bears.

Like, it feels like an obvious thing to say, but you need food to survive.

You need nutrients.

Just a little bit.

Just a little bit.

Like movement and prevention is much better than starving a horse because I promise you, it'll take until you're actually damaging their body for them to even lose the weight.

You're going to starve them almost to death and they're still going to be fat.

That's just how it works.

Horses are thrifty creatures.

We're getting into thrifty season of all things.

Like this is the time the hormones that are being released at this time that are peak for the season, which makes it so scary, is some of the important things that help wild horses survive.

It helps them trigger their adrenal system to grow coats, to become more thrifty with the less calories because in the winter, in the wild, horses are now foraging on less.

So you're literally, you're working against their evolution, their anatomy to be able to lose weight.

They're going to be, they're going to have a harder time losing weight now when they need to.

So you're, add it to your toolbox of everything we just gave you.

Exercise is huge.

Even if it's like 30 minutes, you do your 10 minute warm up, you trot for 15 minutes.

Wait, I'm going to lose my math here.

Hold on, five minutes.

Wait.

The point is, let's do at least 20 minutes of straight trotting.

Please don't make me do simple math.

Or you could even do two minutes walk.

You could do essentially four, five minute trot sets or four minute trot sets with walk breaks in between.

If you have a horse that isn't fit, even just like an hour of walk is so beneficial.

Absolutely.

That's not a walk in grace for five minutes.

That's a purposeful walk with purpose, catwalk.

— The Purposeful Walk: Why Low-Intensity Movement Matters

Yep.

Catwalk.

Yeah.

March.

Go for it.

Walking is the greatest of the gates.

Truly, when they say walk is the king of the gates, it is so true.

I've gotten more done physically for him, not just strength training, but metabolic management by walking.

Horses are meant to walk, make them walk.

And honestly, it's good for you too.

Bitch, move.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And even- We went on a walk yesterday.

Oh, that's right.

That's right.

You guys were checking out the new spot.

I can't wait to hear more about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

The walks are so good.

Even if it's like, you know, in the dead of winter and the arena's frozen and like, you can't do anything, you can do all the things at a walk with the least amount of concussion on that.

And you can still do a- Absolutely.

Workout.

Yeah.

So- Absolutely.

And if you don't have a horse that's like foot-sensitive and you have, you know, like any kind of quality driveway or barnyard, that's a valuable real estate, baby. 100%.

Oh, yeah.

I love it because the varied terrain, usually there's like, especially where, you know, where we come from is Georgia, usually there's like small hills, little slopes.

That's like, that's the cream of the crop.

I'll take that over a manicured arena any day.

Oh, yeah.

Variety is best.

Absolutely.

It is the spice of life.

So keep them moving.

Responsible exercise.

Let's call it responsible exercise.

Yes, responsible exercise.

Diet control.

And just to kind of circle back to, we are at the start, well, I think we're pretty much in the seasonal rise right now.

Like we're at the beginning.

We're in that, yeah.

Yeah, we're in it.

So if you have a horse who is controlled, meaning their diet is controlled, they do get exercise.

They have limited access to grass.

And all of a sudden, now they're starting to get footy.

This may be a time to reach out to your vet and have a conversation about maybe it's time to look at PPID, which is your Cushing's.

One in five over the age of 15 are going to develop PPID, which is bananas.

We have a whole tin foil hat lecture series on that.

So get ready for it.

Oh, yeah.

We actually have been avoiding it because we don't know where to even start.

We have so much to say, and it's going to have to be multiple episodes because this is a big girl topic.

I think it would be one of those topics where it would divide the audiences to where the amount of people we would gain is also the amount of people that we would lose.

Yeah, that's right.

Anyway, so any of those things, that is the time to hang up with us and call your vet.

Yeah.

Because I feel like it would be unlikely that your farrier wouldn't notice or say something because most competent farriers are pretty loud about Cushing's testing.

But it is really important and it has to be done right.

That's kind of a hard thing to test.

I know that we just said like 20 minutes ago that they can have normal numbers and symptoms.

— ACTH Rise & Fall Testing: Why Once a Year Isn't Enough

But I am a big proponent for testing once a year.

Me too.

I mean, now is the time that you're most likely to get the most accurate results.

Because this is the time where if there's an issue, it's going to show in the blood work.

But it's definitely worth doing.

It's actually not, as far as vet bills go, it's not the worst thing in the world.

No.

ACTH baseline should be, I think, maybe 60, which is suitable for this time of year and the seasonal rise.

Dr.

Kellan, with the ECIR group, advocates for the TRH stim in the spring.

And I think that one, I think the last time I did the TRH stim was like 150, maybe.

Does that sound right?

That feels right.

Somewhere in there.

Yeah.

I just did it in the spring.

I can actually...

Yeah.

Yeah.

RADS and labs.

RADS and labs.

Yeah.

Do those once a year.

Oh, there was one other thing I was going to mention on that.

Oh, that's what it was.

Okay.

Sorry.

No, going back to like not...

Just because a horse isn't like...

Their labs aren't clinical doesn't mean that they're presenting as clinical.

Alicia Harlov did an episode on her podcast, and it was a guest case study episode, and she had someone come on who...

The horse was...

He was young.

I think he was under 10, and...

Oh, I know what you're talking about.

This was like three episodes ago or four episodes ago?

Yes, and this horse was not...

He was clearly cushionoid, but the numbers were completely within range.

And now, I think...

On paper, he was fine.

Yeah, but he's symptomatic.

And I think he's on two milligrams, or was it five?

Like, it was a big number that was like...

It was stupid.

I feel like it was...

Five sounds right, because it was like...

I remember gasping audibly in my car.

Same.

Yeah, I was like, Jesus, Christmas.

That's a lot, especially for a horse whose numbers are, like...

Clean.

Yeah.

So...

Well, and for a young horse.

Yeah.

I mean, I've had a couple cases where their ACTH has been completely within normal limits, but the vet has opted to put them on pergolide, just because it does have hyperinsulinic support, and it does help tremendously.

So...

I mean, I did it last year around this time because I couldn't get him off grass and he was not stable.

Now, okay, wait.

Hold on, bitches.

That is not us advocating for you doing an experiment without your vet.

Thank you so much.

Yes, we were just kind of...

Yeah.

Just to cover our own...

Yeah.

We're just talking to it now.

Call your vet.

Call your farrier.

Call your vet.

Don't be doing anything crazy.

Don't be like, oh, hey, barn friend, you have those little pink pills.

Can I borrow a couple?

No, fucking do that.

Don't do that.

No, no, no.

These are all get...

These are all vet-guided cases that we are referring to.

Yes.

These are all...

The vets made these recommendations.

And actually, let's do one thing while we're talking about pergolide.

— Pergolide: Dosing, Storage & Seasonal Adjustments

We'll talk about it more.

But the care of it, the maintenance of it.

So just in case, just in case.

And this is totally off topic, but this is a moment for us to share it.

So percent comes in these little nitrogen packets.

They're individually wrapped.

The second you take them out of the packet, they start to degrade.

So just be really cautious to not meal prep, or when you take it out, you have to feed it immediately.

Or what I'll have, what I'll like, not me.

I've seen vets recommend this and I thought this was great.

So now I just share it with others.

If you have them on a half tab, what you can do is open it, break it in half, feed the half, wrap the other half up in the tin foil, and then I put it in Sunday through Saturday pill case, and just put it in the next day.

Old lady pill case.

The old lady one, and I always get a black one as well, and I keep them in a dark hidden place.

Nice protected.

And that seems to work really well.

So just something to be aware of that they do start to degrade.

Not everyone reads the pamphlet.

There's a reason that drugs come with a huge ass pamphlet.

The amount of people that I've come to, and you know when you get to a case and you're like, oh, how much pergoli do they get just from looking at them?

And then they tell me, and I'm like, can I see what you do?

And this may be overstepping, this is more vet territory, but I don't think it's inappropriate.

As a friend.

Yeah, I don't think it's inappropriate for me to be like, hey, maybe try using this as a dispensing.

Well, no, because vets often don't think to mention that.

They may not, especially if they are intending to titrate up the patient, they may titrate too high because they're not actually getting what they think they're getting.

Like, I've done that myself.

I was managing boarded horses at the time and I've done that myself because I didn't know better.

It's good to say.

And no one's going to be mad at you because you're saving the money.

I know.

That's just expensive.

If they're basically throwing it away, it's not helping their horse.

People are going to be more than happy to hear that.

Yeah, I know.

It always feels so accusatory and I never want it to come off as that.

It's just a supportive measure.

Okay, so let's see.

Get them off grass.

We don't like grass.

Muzzle them.

Boo.

Muzzle them.

Boo, sad.

Keep an eye on their weight.

Listen to your farrier.

Have a communication with them.

If they're noticing something, a responsible practitioner will notice if there's changes in the white line, perhaps a thickening of it.

If there is some cringe effect, if there's starting to be some retracted sole, listen to your hoof care provider.

Watch your horse move.

Look at their eye.

Look at their neck.

Where their neck and their chest kind of meet.

That can tell you a lot.

— Reading Your Horse's Body: Small Red Flags Add Up

If they're super stiff there, that's like, these are all teeny tiny little red ribbons, not necessarily flags.

But if you've got enough of them, they add up.

So we just want to make sure that you're not getting to where you're like, holy shit, I need to call the vet.

Yeah, the little things that, you know, it's death by a thousand cuts.

It's fine.

And here are your little zips.

We got your summer toolkit.

Yeah.

I feel good about this.

Is there, do you think we left anything out?

I feel like this was like super thorough.

I feel like it was too.

I'm happy with where we are and I do want to go ahead and link some research down in wherever Taylor links stuff when she's done because she's the technology woman.

I'll do it.

Yeah, yeah.

We'll see you there.

I'll find you the ones.

Oh, and we'll put safergrass.org.

I was, yeah, I was about to say the exact same thing because you have that in our notes.

Safergrass, if you want to go into some really big time nerdy stuff about grass, and you scare the hell out of yourself, but be way more prepared for this season of Thunderdome, safergrass.org is an awesome resource.

We'll put it down below.

And I think I did find that, I think I put it in our notes that exercise research paper.

Oh, yeah.

That one was really cool.

Okay.

Yeah, I really, I think people should read it.

I think it's really cool.

I can find it because I still, I have access to the university library faculty perk, so we can exploit that and I can find that article for us.

Because that's, I think, a really good one to add in.

I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Yeah, yeah.

We love exercise.

I mean, I don't love exercise, but I love making my horse exercise.

It's good for him.

Yeah.

Yep.

If you or a friend have a topic, story, or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

— Closing: Resources, Safergrass.org & Final Thoughts

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

What are you doing?

I don't know.

Just start.

Well, I can hear all that.

It's all recording.

Oh, shit.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Taking my entire stuff apart.

Does this work?

Is this working?

Yeah.

You just take it.

Well, I didn't broke.

Yeah, it's not supposed to come off the stand, but I broke it, so it's fine.

Oh.

That's much better.

Is that a girl?

The pieces are somewhere.

It's fine.

This thing is such a chode.

Look at my hand.