E1: Pilot

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Red Mare Project is a podcast on decoding equine behavior through expert interviews and authentic stories, as well as in-depth insights about horse health, management, and horsemanship. Topics range from mysterious lameness cases, puzzling behavioral issues, to general care. Your horse's behavior may not just be behavior.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Intro & Show Mission

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

I'm Kahlan. And I'm Taylor.

Our mission is to provide evidence-based information and actionable guidance to promote proper stewardship of the horse's mind, body, and spirit. Join our quest to shake up the status quo and create a world where horses thrive.

Taylor, I was so excited for this pilot. We are here, man.

We're doing it. I feel like this has been cooking for such a long time. Since probably the first time we put our hands on horses, this is, we have been training for this day. It brought us here to this table today. This is what we've been training for.

So, yeah, Kahlan, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, your practice, what you do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So, my name is Kahlan Atair.

I am the nutrition girl. But first, I am from New York originally, and I knew that I wanted to be around horses.

Since the first time I saw one, I lived outside the city, but definitely in suburbia.

— Kahlan's Background: Growing Up a Barn Rat

Horse was one of my first words, actually. Very appropriate. And I, yeah, bird was my other, which is funny, because I also have a bird.

I knew that getting a horse was not in the cards for me.

My family didn't have the resources for that. And when we first moved here, I originally was like, Georgia sucks.

I hate it here.

I don't want to do this. And as we drove around, just like, you know, to school, to the store, whatever, I was like, oh, shit, there's horses here.

I'm on it. Galore. Yeah.

So I, you know, begged my parents for a horse, and they were like, yeah, right.

You don't know what money is. And I was like, okay, fine.

Can I have lessons?

No, can't really do that either. I was like, okay.

So in what capacity can I be around these creatures?

Because I fear if I'm not, my soul will die. Oh.

And I, that is. Damn. And I mean that. No, that's real. Yeah. That's real life. I'm sure there's plenty of you who can relate.

Yeah.

So I just had my parents start driving me around to any barn and let me out of the car and say, can I work here? I was like 12. You were like a real OG barn rat. Oh, yeah.

Real OG barn rat. And if you know, you know. Oh, yeah.

Like, didn't have boots, didn't even have a sweatshirt in the winter, wore my mom's cute little peplum leather jacket. Oh, bless you. Yeah.

Like, I was not born a barn kid, but I got there as fast as I could. No, you were born a barn kid. I just was born in the wrong place.

You were born in the city.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just started literally going around to places and saying, how can I be part of this?

And a lot of places really didn't have space for me.

And I came upon one private farm. My grandma actually was driving past it and called my parents and was like, hey, it looks like there's forks down there.

Maybe that'll work out.

And boy, did it. It was a group of three old ladies who, well, they're old now, they weren't at the time.

This was 15 years ago.

— Finding Her Place: Rescue Work & First Horse

Sorry, gals. And that just got into rescue.

They'd been riding together for years, had this space they leased, just got into rescue.

And the very first day I got dropped off, one lovely lady who I'm still, actually still keep my horse there, was like, yeah, I love kids. Like, we'll take her.

We need as much help as possible.

And that day, we just, I say we, it wasn't we at the time, but it is now. We just so happened to be working on the hardest case to date.

Multiple vets that we were working with at the time told us, like, don't, don't try.

He's not, he's not going to make it. And that was 15 years ago.

And he's running around in the pasture with my horse now, looking like a butterball, fine. Oh, no kidding. Yeah.

But that day was like one of the hardest days of my life. Yeah. Because I had no horse experience, really.

I mean, I had like a little bit. You had to drink from the fire hydrant. I literally did.

Yeah.

This horse had to be fed every hour on the hour. Couldn't have more than a handful of food because his organs were actively shutting down.

His skin ripped at his hip, his point of his hip because he was so thin, the bones actually cut his skin. He has a one. Yeah.

Oh, he was like a zero.

He was like a 0. 1. They don't make a body score to accommodate for this horse.

Like it was really bad.

And I was there the entire day. And by the time I got home, I still have never been that tired in my life.

And I was like, okay, I live here now.

And I never left. And the next batch of rescues that came in happened to have my son in it.

I saw this horse.

He was pretty much untouched. “I used the word feral because he had a person who like pet on him, not a horse person, but like pet on him.

And like when he was a baby, this girl that was like family of the people who owned the herd kind of gave him some attention.

Was like, oh my God, he's so cute. He's very charismatic.

And then he never saw people like he wasn't really, he technically knew what a halter was, didn't know what to do when it was on him.

— Kahlan's First Rescue Case & Falling in Love with Her Horse

I had nothing. And I at this point obviously was no trainer.

And no professional.

But I saw him, and I knew that that was my soulmate. And I knew that I would do anything to make sure that that horse never left my hands. You got the bug immediately. I've never felt, I didn't feel that way.

I, sorry, John, I didn't feel that way when I met my husband.

I've never felt fire like I did the moment, like I'm going to cry. The moment I laid eyes on him, I was like, I will do anything for this creature. When you know, you know, man. And I got really, it, you know, when you see something that you love so much, it inspires you to learn. Yeah. And I spent 10 years, more than 10 years, like more like 13 in the rescue space.

Lots of horses passed through my hands.

And I really, it's extremely rewarding, extremely rewarding to work with rescues. And it's super, super hard.

Yeah.

But I realized, only in the past couple years, actually only with some of the stories that you and I have shared, that we'll share later, I realized it actually can be pretty simple. And then you get to meet them. Yeah, you said that about Leah earlier. Yeah. And it's just lovely when a horse is comfortable and they feel trusting of you and their space.

Their bodies feel good, their minds feel good.

It is, there's nothing like it. And that's why I got into nutrition on a private level.

I left the rescue space, so I just have my son.

And I got into taking one-on-one clients, because I know the nutrition space for horses is so overwhelming. Yeah. And people end up doing too much.

You still have a problem that actually oftentimes is quite simple.

If you come at it from the right perspective and listen to the horse, it's actually quite simple. So that's kind of how I got into private nutrition.

So that's where I am now professionally

— Kahlan's Professional Life: Nutrition & Functional Medicine

I also work in people medicine. I work in functional medicine practice, which is absolutely one of the most valuable portions of my life, and has taught me so much that is usable in the professional horse space, which is awesome.

I primarily trail ride my horse.

I just kind of... You guys vibe.

Yeah. We just kind of play. When I came to see you guys, I think it was two, three weeks ago, maybe? Yeah, almost a month, actually. Something like that.

And I actually got to see you guys just hanging out and just vibing together.

I haven't seen a relationship like that. I couldn't tell you in how long.

I don't think I ever have. Thank you. It was very sobering in the best way. Thank you. Because you don't get to see that.

And I mean, no disrespect on the performance world.

I mean, I'm in it, but... That's not prioritized often. Yeah. That's why I don't compete.

I mean, you know how athletic he is.

That's the main reason I don't compete, because I don't want anything to come before our relationship, anything ever on this planet. And he makes it really easy, because he loves to participate.

He trusts me.

He is incredibly close. Like, he's my pal.

And it's very clear.

Like, you know, I think a lot of people, this is going to sound like, oh, I'm the best. I don't mean that.

I just mean, like, it's incredibly rewarding when you listen to them.

They have so much to tell you. And he knows that I'll listen, and he's loud as hell. Yeah.

He's Italian.

He screams. He told you he's my son. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I birthed him.

It would look the same. So yeah, that's where I am.

If I could ride Endurance, I would.

In some future episodes, we'll get into why that's not possible with him right now. But he is a powerhouse of a horse, and he just loves to play.

So I can't wait.

Hopefully, tomorrow, we can ride together out on your trails, and we can really see what they can do. I love it. Yeah.

So what about you, Taylor?

— Taylor's Introduction: Psychology & Testing Background

Did you want to talk about your practice? Yeah.

So my name is Taylor Scoughton, and I wear a couple of different hats.

I lead a few different lives. So in the more normal human sense, we'll start with that because that's the shorter part of my existence.

So my formal education background is in clinical psychology.

So I have a bachelor's and a master's degree in clinical psych. And my main training for my master's degree is psychometric testing. What the hell is that? So that's so funny to say that because even the first time I filed taxes when I started doing testing, my accountant was like, I don't think this is a real job. I promise you it is.

It was expensive to go to school to do.

It's a real job. I promise.

Yeah.

So I'm technically a psychometrist. So I do psychological evaluations in a private practice setting.

So we do ADHD evaluations, learning disabilities, psychosis, personality disorders, parental fitness, the whole gamut. That sounds so fun. It's pretty cool.

It's taxing.

I mean, it's like taking the SAT every time you sit down with a client. But it's pretty cool.

I've learned an insane amount, and I've really learned how to talk to people regardless of where they are emotionally, psychologically. Yeah, you are incredibly good at that. Thank you.

I've had to figure out how to get people to feel good about themselves, but also make them perform their best for testing, which has been a huge asset, especially in the hoof care world. Oh, yeah.

I totally see that. So that's been a huge asset.

So I've been testing now for, I did the math and I don't like the number, but over 10 years. Old. I can't believe I've been testing that long.

Bananas.

And then in addition to that, I've also served and still work as an adjunct professor at a small local community college. So I've been teaching undergrad now for, oh god, I think maybe that one's upwards of like 14 years. So like I talk to you every single day, but I don't know the answer to this question.

— Taylor's Teaching Career & Balancing Multiple Roles

Like, what are your hours for that?

I know you do a lot of like grading papers at home, like you're doing a lot of stuff like remotely, but do you go into the school? And like, I don't know these things about you. No, no, no, that's a good question, because it does seem like I lead a double life, and I truly do. Yeah, you're always busy, which is amazing. Yeah, it's bonkers.

So I do keep, I probably, in terms of private practice, I probably carry like four cases a week right now.

I've really backed off, but I do enjoy it, and I do appreciate the skill set and what it does for me and what I can do for the community. So I maintain that.

And then for teaching, I'm no longer in the classroom, which is kind of sad, because I really, like being in the classroom is so much fun. I could see that.

I could see you really thriving there.

You're a really good teacher. Oh, thank you.

It's fun.

And I think it's been really cool because I've been able to kind of integrate client education into my hoof care practice, and that really stems from what academia has done for me. So I was in front of the classroom for maybe just under a decade, and then when COVID hit, everything turned remote.

So to answer your question, I haven't been to campus in a couple of years. Oh, wow. I know. That's nice. It is, but I also kind of miss it. You're missing something. Because it's part of my soul, but the cool thing is that I'm able to get that teaching, like I can scratch that teaching itch with client education. You do that so well because I've seen people really screw up, and you just say so beautifully what they should be doing to support their force, when I would probably just laugh at them. It has taken some time.

It has not been an overnight learning.

It has been a skill set that I've had to foster. But it's a strong muscle you have now.

— Taylor's Hoof Care Practice: Wild Hoof Equine

You're so good at it. Thank you.

Yeah, so I still teach, which is bananas, but a lot of the stuff that I do, it is online.

So I'll do emails and grading and things like that, but it's just kind of interwoven into my day. So my morning with coffee isn't like when I'll do emails and grading and things like that. Okay. Anyway, so that's the other half of my world, and then actually the small portion of my world.

The biggest portion of my world is hoof care.

So I've been in hoof care now for about five years, and I have my hoof care practice, wild hoof equine. And I offer barefoot trimming, composite shoeing, steel transitions, rehab, stuff like that.

And that has been, I loved what I did in psych, and I love what I still do in psych, but this like lights a fire under your ass, like you've never seen. Oh, this is, yeah, no, you're super Taylor when you're talking hooves. I think I'm obsessed. You are.

And lucky me, selfishly, that you are. Oh, bless. Because I get to benefit from your teaching. Oh, bless.

No, it's really, it's the best job in the world.

And yeah, so I've been doing that for about five years now. I apprenticed with Casey Sexton of North Georgia Hoof Care at the very start.

And she apprenticed under the king himself, Pete Raimi. Yeah, that's wild. And then quickly into my early days of training.

So I did my apprenticeship.

And then I pretty quickly got introduced to Daisy Bicking, who has, I've been under her mentorship since then. And really heavily involved with the International, or the Integrated School of International Health Care, which is her... International School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. It's... I remember. Every single time I go to say that.

But yeah, Daisy has an absolutely incredible school that she's building.

This program is just phenomenal. And I've been really fortunate to be under her wing for quite a few years, which is remarkable.

So yeah, so that's my practice.

— Taylor's Mare Leah: Kissing Spine, MFM & Her Story

And then in, I guess, the off days, do I say off days? Do I have those? I don't know that you do. The off minutes.

To be generous. Yeah.

When you think about having an off minute. When I think about it.

So yeah, so I do have my own homebred mare.

Her name is Leah. She just turned.

She's out in the field.

I'm not sure if we mentioned it yet. We are recording at the farm, so we have like the perfect backdrop.

So Leah just turned 19 and she has been, and just like for many of us, our own horses are like our big teachers.

So she has been the one who has not so gently forced me into... Yeah, that's a nice way to say it. Into learning about some pretty nuanced things.

And I've been fortunate enough to be able to kind of warp that into helping clients and other horses.

But the short of it, Leah will have her own episodes. Multiple. Multiple.

She gets, I'm not sure if it's a trilogy, but definitely, definitely at least two parts.

A sequel, yeah. But she was diagnosed with kissing spine and actually underwent kissing spine surgery.

And she was also diagnosed with myofibular myopathy, which is a muscle disorder.

So lucky me, I have had to learn how to manage a horse who has undergone pretty significant surgery and then now also has a muscle myopathy. And you'd never know.

She's stunning. Thank you.

Well, that's because I am psychotic about her management. Works hard to keep this horse.

So healthy. But the cool thing is, everything that I've learned by helping her, I'm able to pay it forward and help our clients. Yeah. And I think that like her mission or her mission, her story, a lot of it was just kind of, the start of a lot of her symptoms were just like little nuances like. The scary stuff. Yeah, like, you know, a lot of it we thought was behavior, which, so learning that we need to parse out those little pieces that we do think are behavior, they're not, they're, well, I mean, sometimes, I guess they could be. Pretty rarely, though, I would be bold enough to say, pretty rarely is it just behavioral. Yeah. And if it's just behavioral, it's just because they misunderstand, like they're giant toddlers, you know, that speak a different language, so that's fair. I was speaking with a good friend of mine who's a positive reinforcement trainer, actually, this morning, and we were talking about how it's rarely behavior.

— Behavior vs. Pain: Parsing What Horses Are Telling Us

It's either pain or poor education. Yeah, they either don't understand or it hurts. Yeah. That's simple. Yeah.

And I think we kind of forget that education is like a significant thing, and we'll kind of like blur the lines of training, education, and pain. Well, because I think, like, we ask a horse to do something, and because we know how to do it, we're like, just do it. Yeah. Like, I'm giving you the correct cues.

They're not born knowing what that means.

They're not born, like, horses weren't made to carry us. We have to teach them how to do so gracefully and so that it doesn't hurt their bodies.

Yeah.

And they're like, they're so emotionally intelligent, it's only reasonable to expect they're going to have emotional reactions sometimes. Exactly. Give them some credit. You said that so well.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, the little things that she's taught me, the little things that, you know, Kahlan and I, both in our practices, together and independently, these horses have taught us these little nuances, and each case carries its own message, or its own, what's the word I'm trying to, takeaway? Yeah. Like, hot take, almost?

Is that a good word for it? I don't know, but I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

Like, there's, like, this horse taught me this one piece, and it's like a core memory now. Yeah. And then I get to another case, and it's like, oh my god, history repeats itself. It's like a part of the glossary you can reference back to. Yeah, yeah.

— Patterns, Learning & What These Horses Have Taught Them

So we're kind of, we're starting to realize, like, okay, this is a pattern, and there's power in patterns. Yeah.

I think I just said, like, ten minutes ago, all the universes is patterns.

Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yeah.

Again, we're coming back to it.

That's a pattern right there. There it is. Boom. Yeah, yeah.

All right.

So, circling back. So yeah, so Leah just turned 19, although she still, you know, we still do stuff.

We earned our bronze medal a couple years ago.

I think that was in 23, maybe. So we got our bronze, which is pretty cool. Wow, that's impressive. Thank you. Knowing her history and like her time frame. It was, well, in retrospect, like 2025, Taylor is not proud of the 2023 horse that I brought down center line. All right.

Well, you're a bit of a perfectionist. I am, but. You're always improving. We are always improving.

But so we practice dressage, and I feel this is going to be a whole can of worms that we will unpack later.

But I feel as we're learning more about biomechanics and we're learning more about just proper movement, even though like doing all the fancy stuff like Tempies, hell yeah, that's super fun. You know, pure webs. Functional movement. Functional movements.

And like that stuff's really fun.

It's the glitter. And I think that part of me will always really enjoy competing.

But once you get that trot where the like it's you're truly floating in space and the horse is truly having self-carriage, I would rather do that for the rest of my life than never be able to ride a Piafra Passage. If I get 10 strides of that in a field when I'm out on the trail, I will literally cry.

I'm like, this is the best day ever.

We're done. Everybody pack it up.

Let's go home. And if you know what we're talking about, if you felt that, you'll understand why.

But if you haven't been there, you're like... What are you talking about? These chicks are wack. You'll know.

You have it. You'll know.

— Dressage, Biomechanics & Functional Movement

So there's been a whole new appreciation for balance and biomechanics and self-carriage and using their back correctly.

That's a whole journey we're on. We'll get to it.

Blah, blah, blah.

But anyway, I wanted to circle back to that. But yeah, she's a cool mare.

She's taught me a lot.

She's done some pretty cool stuff. We used to do cross-country.

But anyway, I'll tell her story in her episode.

So speaking of all the really cool stuff that all of our client horses or non-client horses, just cases that we've heard about in the past, that kind of brings us a little bit to why we are calling this The Red Mare Project. Do you want to explain why we named it The Red Mare Project? I really do.

I think Taylor's actually the one who put that together. Oh, I didn't.

I was amused.

I had a muse. I was amused by her vessel.

I don't have the ideas, man.

I'm just the vessel. She's in her vessel.

She's very open to inspiration. A lot of miles. Yeah.

So, it's funny.

We actually, neither of us have a Red Mare. She has a mare, but she's not red.

She's beautiful.

But really, the Red Mare is a symbol. The Red Mare is a symbol of all those horses who maybe haven't been listened to, haven't been stereotyped as who's the horse in the barn that you know has been stereotyped as difficult, or unpleasant, or bossy. Or they're just like that. They're just always been that way.

Yes. Yes. That's just her persona.

She's just a bitch. Like, fuck off. That's not.

Yeah, fuck off. No, that's not the case. We want to speak for all the Red Mares.

And whether or not they're a paint gelding, we want to speak for them because that is, that symbol is so important to us to share.

When you really have a good relationship with a Red Mare, you realize the mutual respect that is there, and how much all that stereotyping really is something deeper. It's usually not, I've never met a horse that's just a bitch.

Ever. No. Ever.

Never. They're the peacemakers. Yeah, truly.

— The Red Mare: A Symbol for Every Misunderstood Horse

Like, it's important for us, the most important thing for us is to represent horses in the way they want to be represented.

And I think the Red Mare is a good symbol of that because she keeps you honest. She keeps you listening.

If you don't listen to a Red Mare, that's when they get stereotyped and labeled as mean or stubborn.

Stubborn will send me through a wall. That's the trigger word. Yeah, that's like, I become a different woman when...

Leave the room.

If I hear you call a mare stubborn, you're... I'm calling Taylor, hide the body.

Because that's fucked up. Don't make me do it. She would do it.

Don't listen to her.

I would. And so, I think that's how we landed, and it really will lend itself well to telling the stories of these different horses that have taught us so much. So, now that we have this concept and this premise, the show is going to have interviews with experts, researchers, fellow professionals.

Kahlan and I are going to share stories of cases that we've worked on together and independently within our own practices.

— What to Expect: Interviews, Case Studies & Show Format

We're also going to have a great many case study episodes. So, in each of our professions, we've seen time and time again that owners really are the ones that know their horses best.

We will have owners on to share their horses' stories as well, because it's those little nuances that we've come to find.

Like, my horse was doing this, and no one else saw it, but I saw it and it just didn't feel right. Those little things, those canaries in the coal mines, those are the ones we got to listen to, and we've learned to do that.

So, case studies are going to be a huge part of our mission and a huge part of just sharing stories.

So again, those little nuances from one case may actually be the answer for another one. So if you have a cool case to share, whether it be a behavioral or diagnostic epiphany or something that has just been a hell of a journey and you want to share it, get at us.

Let's talk about it. Hell yeah.

Are you good? I'm good, man.

You good? I'm good.

If you or a friend have a topic, story, or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission, or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture. And as a disclaimer, just to cover our asses, as a friendly reminder for listeners, we are not veterinarians, and we are, just like you, students of the horse.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms. Peace.