the-red-mare-project

E10: King's (heel first) landing: King's story

Sun, 12 Oct 2025 07:03:40 GMT

Join your hosts, Taylor and Kahlan for another candid conversation, this time featuring Sara Hathaway of 4 Hooves Hoofcare and The Stables at Yellow Creek. Sara is a full-time Hoofcare Provider , boarding and rehab facility owner, boot fitter AND fabulous friend. She’s also generous enough to host a variety of educational clinics for owners and professionals. Join the girls for a chat all about Sara‘s journey into navicular rehab of her own horse, King, and how that fueled her passion for professional rehabilitation and management. For a more in-depth look at what “navicular “is and how we rehab it, travel back to earlier episode “Heel Pain Heartache: Lokis story”. Make sure to check out links for Sara’s services down below. Oh, and don’t forget your snacks �� Sara's practice: https://4hooveshoofcare.com/ Sara's farm and rehab: https://www.thestablesatyellowcreek.com/ Cheers! Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoofcare Practitioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Equine Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook: The Red Mare Project Instagram: Wild_Hoof_Equine

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

- Intro: Welcoming Sara Hathaway & King’s Story

Okay, welcome back to a very special episode, where we will be welcoming one of our closest friends and favorite people on the planet, Sara Hathaway. Sara is here to tell us all about her journey with her personal horse, King, and then how that leads into her explosive career in hoof care today. Welcome, Sara and King.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

This episode focuses more so on Sara and King's story through navicular disease. For more information on anatomy, science, and pathology of navicular disease, check out episode 3, Heel Pain Heartache, Loki's Story. Enjoy.

We're here. She's here.

She's here.

Wait, where'd she go?

I'm here.

She's here.

So pretty.

Come back.

It just came on. It popped up and said, Google Link would like to track your motion and fitness. I was like, fuck that.

Mind your business. No, I know.

What the fuck?

You're so rude.

You don't need to know my fitness.

Dude, thank you so much.

Can you hear me okay?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, actually, yeah. Okay.

Thank you so much for doing this. This is going to be a good one.

Yeah.

I'm so excited.

I'm excited. How are you? How's Houston?

It's actually so awesome. Good. Yeah.

I miss you. I miss Taylor. I miss my people in Georgia, but Houston's pretty sick.

Good.

And it's so hot, which I love. Okay.

That's good. It's so hot.

It's like 105 degrees every day. It's awesome.

Well, good. I'm glad. How are you?

I saw your cute posts with you and Eric riding.

I know. We rode horses today.

I love that. Yeah, we did good.

That was great.

It started pouring down rain on us. I'm like, it's fine. We're having fun.

Shut up, we're riding. It's so funny.

It was good.

So, okay. Let's get started. So, you've heard the show before, yeah?

Yes. Okay. So, just a couple rules.

You can swear as much as you want. Cool. We love it.

And if there's anything that you want taken out, like after the fact, you're like, scratch that from the record, just let me know and I can cut it. So, yeah, we can, I can snip, snap, snip, snap, whatever you need. Okay.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah. All right, Sara, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

My name is Sara Hathaway. I own 4 Hooves Hoofcare. I'm a hoof care provider in Northeast Georgia.

I cover pretty much anywhere from Alpharetta to Athens, and I do barefoot trimming, Goulon and composite shoes, and hoof boot fittings. I'm a dealer for Easy Care, Renegade boots, Scoop boots, and Cavallo boots. I also own The Stables at Yellow Creek, which is a boarding facility in Murrayville, Georgia.

We do traditional pasture board, and then we also have a track system for people that want a more natural way of keeping their horse, or they have a horse that's in need of hoof or lameness rehab.

Perfect. So, do you want to start with telling us a little bit about how King came to you? Let's go back to the origin story.

- Sara’s Background and King’s Origin Story

Oh, wow. I was 14 or 15, I think. And I have ridden horses my whole life.

And I came out of the womb on a Western saddle, and all we did was Western trail riding kind of stuff. And then when I was a teenager, I wanted to do jumping. I wanted to do hunter jumpers and do more fun things.

And so we found King and drove up to Tennessee to try him, and we bought him and brought him home. And we did hunter jumpers for like four years throughout high school.

Really?

And then, yeah.

Oh, cool.

We never did anything like serious. It was just like local Rolling Hill shows. But I mean, yeah, we did.

I always got like a Western vibe from him.

Jumped all the way up to three whole feet.

Oh, yeah.

So and then he just went to college with me, and he was just my, he's been just my therapist, my listener ever since. So, and now he's 24 and a half. He's 24 and a half, and he's just, just the best.

He's just the chick for Lake Owl.

He's my chick for Lake Owl, 100%.

So we want to definitely get into your practices and everything that you do. So there's going to be like a couple sections of how we break this up. So we'll talk about King, and then we want to talk about you, and then we want to talk about your farm.

Okay. Yeah.

So King's story, when did things kind of start to go a little south? Because his thing, he was diagnosed with, what was it called?

Nivecular. Nivecular disease, degeneration syndrome, whatever. Nivecular.

What's funny is he, so I brought him to college with me, and there was, I think when I was like a junior, there was a segment of time where I was like, I was like, I think he's lame, he feels lame.

And I'd ask all my friends, I'm like, is he lame? Does he look lame?

They're like, no, he's not lame. I'm like, he feels lame. Like, he's not lame.

- Early Signs of Lameness

You're crazy.

I feel Kahlan like freaking out right now.

And so I had to like save up money for a couple months, and then I had the vet out to do a lameness exam, and the vet flexed him, and the lameness didn't really change with the flexing.

And so the vet at that time was like, let's do a Butte trial and give him Butte, you know, whatever it was, every day for two weeks or something, and then we'll come back and do a recheck. And he came back and did a recheck.

Same thing. The lameness was pretty much the same. Yep.

No, no change with flexion. And so he was like, I don't really have to tell you, just put him on MSM. And I think the vet, he probably didn't really know, but he was also like this, four girls in college, I'm just going to leave it at this.

MSM is $30 for like three months.

Exactly. So that's, I was like, okay, well, if that's what you say, I guess I'm crazy, and I'll just put him on MSM. And so that's what we did.

And then, and like in college, I didn't ride that much. Like I went out to the barn every day to see him. I had to put sunscreen on him because he has pink skin and he sunburns.

And so I'd go out every day, but I wouldn't necessarily ride. So like, whether he was lame or not, I didn't dive into or really investigate anymore because we weren't riding. And so that I'm pretty sure was the start of all this.

And I don't know in that moment, if he had thrush, but I can almost guarantee you, he probably had deep central sulcus thrush because I had no idea what that was. So no, I never mentioned that during this whole time.

I remember you telling me that.

I digress. So I think this all probably started at that moment, but it never manifested in anything else. Then it was 2019 and I had graduated and I had a big girl job and everything.

I would get on and I would ride and I'm like, he feels lame. Does anybody else think he's lame?

Everyone's like, no, Sara, he's not lame.

- White Line Separation, X-Rays, and Navicular Diagnosis

I'm like, no, something's wrong. That's when I was picking out his feet one day and I noticed that he had white line separation and I was like, what is this? Why does it look like that?

I got obsessed and I googled white line separation and that pulls up all of the really massive resection. The whole foot is cut off and I'm like, oh God, of course, this is why he's lame. His whole foot needs to be cut off.

I had a friend at my barn that I boarded at the time, had the vet coming out to do a lameness check on her horse and so I jumped in on the appointment. Then that's when I thought the appointment was just, I need to get hoof x-rays so that my ferrier knows how much foot to cut off and we can go from there. She came and she took the x-rays and then she took a couple more x- rays.

She took a whole, the full ferrier views and that's when she was like, no, the white line is there.

It was not deep at all. She was like, well, in the navicular bone, this doesn't look so good kind of thing.

She suggested a couple of diet changes because he was very fat, he was very overweight. She asked me, what do you feed him? I said, he gets a whole scoop of sweet feed every day.

Yeah, the big three quart scoop too. You've seen him, he's not skinny.

He's beautiful.

She was like, let's maybe not do that anymore. We'll try and get some weight off of him and then we'll do a recheck. I did that, she came back for the recheck, he wasn't any different, so she did the full nerve block on circles, and it was determined in that moment that this was definitely navicular is where the problem was because he nerve blocked completely sound when she blocked the lower foot.

She told me what it was, I had no idea. I've had horses my whole entire life, but I was shockingly ignorant still with anything beyond just getting on them and riding around the pasture. And so she told me he's got navicular, I had never heard that word before, I did not know what any of that meant.

That's good, actually.

I mean, yeah, good to a degree, but like the discussion was kind of similar to your experience, Kahlan where he has navicular, it's going to get worse, and you should probably be prepared to make a tough decision in the next few months.

Sorry that your horse sucks for you.

I was just like, he's barely even lame. I had to convince you guys he was lame. Now I'm like, let's save up for euthanasia here.

I was like, how did we get here? How did this just happen? I went home that night and I just cried my eyes out.

I was sobbing to my husband, like, she can sit up, I'm going to have to put him down. I was like, so sad. I was like, how did we get here?

Then as everyone dies, I got on Facebook and Google and search what nebicular disease was and there was so much conflicting information. She had mentioned briefly, you could try corrective shoeing. My failure at the time, blessed him, I still love him to this day.

- Researching Navicular, Thrush, and Barefoot Rehab

He was like, you can do the corrective shoeing, but every horse that I've put it on only lasts for a little while and then they get more lame. I was like, well, I don't want that. I had also just gotten married.

We were broke and I was like, I don't really want to pay for shoes. Then I just like, and still, mind you, never yet has anyone said anything about thrush. Stuffed and all this experience.

I get on Google and I'm looking on all these websites and there's so much conflicting information. I'm like, put the shoes on, don't do the shoes, pull the shoes, what causes it, da, da, da. Then I found Pete Ramey's website, and where he goes into great detail with navicular disease.

Then that led me to a lot of information with Dr. Bowker, and then that eventually led me to Alicia Harlow's Facebook group. At the time, it was called Barefoot Method for Navicular. She's changed the title of the group.

What's it called now?

I think Barefoot Transition for Navicular.

She took Method out of it.

Yeah.

I was like, yeah, it's like Barefoot something for Navicular.

Because I want to put a plug in there because that is a fantastic resource.

It is Barefoot Rehab for Navicular.

Rehab, that's what it is now.

I found that group, my Bible.

I went along there, and between that and Pete Raimi's website, I kept seeing all this stuff about Thrush, and it still just didn't flick in my head. And I remember there's that picture on Pete's article, and it shows the hoof pick sitting in the Central Sulcus.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

It didn't occur to me that that was the picture of what it shouldn't look like.

Yep.

And I was looking at it, and I was like, yeah, that's, yeah, he looks just like it.

We're good.

I'm like, that's a Cent, he has a Central Sulcus, that's a Central Sulcus, check. You know, scroll on. It was like, it didn't, it, I didn't register that, like, they're not set with the bad, that, you know, that that was, that was the no.

It didn't, he needed to put like a little X in the corner. Yeah. For it to register in my brain.

And so then I got on Alicia's group and I posted pictures of my horse's feet and I was like, I was like, is there any chance it's just the white line causing him to be lame? And I like posted the pic, or I just post, I posted the x-rays. And Alicia comments on there and I remember her saying something like, I'm about to run into work, so I can, I'll say more about this later, but he definitely has thrush.

And I'm like, how do you know these are x-rays? I'm like, how do you see the thrush? And she's like, no, it's like literally illuminated all around his frog, he's covered in thrush.

Oh wow.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So then I was like, I was like, okay, go on Google. What is thrush? You know, just like going down, like trying to learn the most basic things that no one had ever told me.

- Boots, Pads, Baby Powder, and Heel-First Landing

Like that's why my biggest thing when I'm talking to owners, I'm like, I literally did not understand what thrush was until I was 23 years old. So, you know, everybody deserves grace. And so then I figured out what thrush was, and then I understood like Toe First Landings.

And I took the slow motion video of him and I uploaded it to the video or uploaded it to the Facebook group. Cause I was like, I don't know what I'm looking at. Like he just looks like he's walking to me.

Is he landing?

Yeah, he's a horse.

I'm like, is he landing how y'all are supposed to? And then now, knowing everything I know now, I look back at the video and I'm like, oh, cause he's just stabbing his toes. I mean, you can, the sand is being flung like three feet in front of him, he's stabbing his toes so hard.

And so, you know, Alicia was the first and only one that was like, if you can just get him to land, heel first and heel, you know, his whole Cottle Hoof, then you can rehab from this. And you don't have to put the Specialty Shoes on it. In fact, those might make it worth it.

You can do this with boots, you can do it yourself. And I'm a very like, if I can do the work and be hands on with it, then I feel like a lot of gratification by being the one to get my hands dirty and do it. And so, and so I did, I bought a pair of hoof boots off of like Facebook Marketplace and it was the old Easy Care Boa boots that had the dial to tighten up those guys.

And so I got the boots on and I took another slow-mo video and I posted it and they're like, that's better, but he's still not heel first. And I still had no idea what I was looking at. And I was like, well, if he's not heel first with the boots that y'all told me to buy, what am I doing wrong?

And they're like, well, maybe he just needs a pad. You gotta add a pad. And you know, the set of pads is like another $20.

And so instead I still worked in corporate at the time. And I went and got a bunch of used mouse pads. And I cut up mouse pads and I put them in his boots.

And so he had two stacks of mouse pads in his boots. And then, and with those mouse pads, I have the video of his very first, like heel first landing. And I was like, I was like, oh my God, he's doing it.

I still don't understand why we want this, but we're doing it. But it's happening, you know?

And you use mouse pads. My girl, that is, I can't tell you how happy that makes me for some reason.

So we did the mouse pads and we did, and then I did just like Kaitlyn with the clouds. I was out every single day and just covering everything in baby powder, his foot, I have another picture of his foot just like caked in baby powder.

I made a paste.

Yeah, I remember you had a sweaty frog paste.

One time you were like, hey, a little less would be fine. It's very pasty in here.

Maybe on the days I'm coming to trim, I cannot see the foot. It's just one matte of white. But I would go out every day and I would cover him in baby powder.

I still didn't fully understand why I needed to, but these people on this Facebook group were telling me that if I do all of these things and I'm not going to have to put him down in a couple of months. And so I'm like, well, by God, I'm going to do it. And so, and I was doing that and I was treating the thrush and the thrush healed super fast and he's laying in heel first.

And, but then everyone kept saying like his toes are too long. Cause I kept the same failure at the time for like six or seven months. And his feet rehabbed really well with the traditional trim that he was getting.

- Learning to Trim and Catching the Hoof-Care Bug

A lot of that being because prior to this experience, I was one of those owners that got my horse trimmed like three times a year.

We won't hold it against you.

You go from never getting trimmed at all to getting trimmed every four weeks, the foot's gonna get better to a certain point. So his foot did better until it sort of like plateaued. And then a lot of people were saying like the toe is too long, the toe is too long.

And that's when I started listening to all of Dr. Bowker's podcasts and Wendy Murdock was doing all of Dr. Bowker's videos and all this stuff. And he talked about getting a rasp and just taking the toe back a little bit every single week. You know, and just rasping from 10 to 2 every single week.

So I bought a rasp off Amazon and I went from 10 to 2 on the toe every single week. And that's, you know, that was the bug. I caught the bug.

It was all uphill from there.

I would rasp his toes every week. And then I was like, if I'm doing this every week, what if, like, why can't I do more? You know, can I do the rest of this?

I was like, how do I learn to do this? And then I looked into PHCP and some of the other barefoot schools and what I could do to just learn to trim my horse myself. As I just, I was like, you know, I was getting like a dopamine rush every single time that I would do anything with him and then he would immediately walk better.

It was like a constant- You become freakishly obsessed.

Yeah, because every week that we'd come out, he was better. I would do like progress videos and progress pictures every Sunday. And it was just like constant being better.

And I was like, how do I make it more better?

Yeah.

And so I told my farrier, I was like, hey, I'm thinking I might learn to just trim him myself. Like, would you be okay with that? He was like, heck yeah, do it.

Go for it. And so I found Ida Hammer and her classes. And I went to- at the time she taught the first two courses of her program, she did them in South Carolina. So I got up and I drove to South Carolina and I took the first two classes. I said, I'm not interested in getting my full certification.

I just want to do the beginner class because I just want to learn to trim my horse. That's it.

Famous last words, right?

Yeah, for real.

And she looks at me and she goes, she goes, for now. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, just my horse. And so I did.

I learned to trim him and I came back and I was like, I'm going to trim him. And it took me just over two hours to do his first trim because I was so nervous and I like mapped his foot, each one of his feet out perfectly. He has never stood that well for me since then.

- Diet, Ongoing Management, and Stable X-Rays

What a boy. So it was like that first day, he was like, I'll do this for you once and then you better hurry it up. So I did.

And then immediately after I was like, is he going to be lame? Is he going to be crippled? And he just marched out of that concrete aisle barn, heel first.

And I was like, I did it. We're healed.

Amazing.

We have magic powers. Yeah, I know. So then that was like, the rest is history.

And so we've done everything that I ever do with him. And mind you, I should go back and say, Alicia's group also gave me a very big diet come to Jesus as well. So he moved to the anti- inflammatory, forage-based, mineral-balanced diet.

And I was definitely one of the people that was like, but could he still have a little bit of sweet feed? And they're like, no. Stop it.

No, he can't. So, like, I, you know, fixed the diet and everything. And so everything that I do with him and every choice that I make with him is keeping things low-sugar, anti-inflammatory and keeping him heal first.

And I watch his landings every day all the time. And the moment that he's not completely confident, heal first, I'm like, what's wrong? What are you doing?

He's like, I'm walking uphill. I'm like, OK.

No, but I don't like it.

Yeah. So he's just, if we need to go in boots for a little while, we'll go in boots. And every once in a while, there'll be random once in a blue moon that he'll have a bad day.

And he's either just busted a move out in the pasture with his friends a little too hard, or mom waited a couple weeks too late in the spring to start putting his muzzle on. And so his feet hurt.

And then we'll just put boots on for a week, and we'll muzzle for a week, and then he bounces back.

So he's just, he's been, he's taught me a lot for sure. So, and if you look at his x-rays, you'd be like, Ooh, this horse probably is going to be put down soon. And he has no idea what those x- rays look like.

He's got calcification on his DDFT. He's got, I mean, yeah, the, the like couple little vascular channels is nothing compared to he has, he has fragments off of the back of his navicular bone.

Like it's, it looks terrible.

He doesn't know that.

He has no idea. He does not move like a horse. He does not move the way that his x-rays say he should.

That's amazing.

So like all the distortions that can happen to a navicular bone in the disease process, he has them.

Mm-hmm.

Damn.

That's crazy.

That's so, like, I know to you both hoof care professionals, it's like, yeah, duh. But it's just so crazy that a horse cannot reflect their hoof x-rays so much. Oh, I know.

I had multiple people look at mine and they were, everyone was like, they're, they're really not bad. Like, this horse isn't lame. And I'm like, but he fucking is.

Like, what do you, stop, stop it. Like, I almost, it's terrible, but I almost don't want to get x-rays again this year because I'm like, I'm going to obsess over them. But then you look at King and he's just out there living his best life with his black ear and his chick-fil-a pattern being so cute.

Yeah. He looks great. I'll still get his x-rays redone every year, every other year, just to see if anything has progressed or gotten worse.

Really bad.

Yeah. Nothing has changed. He has stayed the same for six and a half years because we've kept his claddle hoof healthy and he's moving comfortably and confidently on his heels.

Nothing is, it's not progressive. It's not degenerative. He's happy.

He's healthy. He's so comfortable.

That's so good.

I think that should be the tagline for this episode.

All right.

It's not degenerative. It's not progressive. He's healthy.

He's happy.

That's it.

I need that painted on my ceiling, behind my eyelids.

- Sensitivity, Fly Boots, Sugar, and the Muzzle

You need to say that to yourself at the mirror.

It's a model. I will. Thank you.

I will.

I'm going to write it on my mirror.

But that's such a good point that you mentioned. He has taught us so much. He even helped me with a case.

I remember I called you a couple months ago and I was just stuck. I have this really complex case that I'm dealing with and we couldn't quite, I don't know, I just needed you. I needed Sara.

You were saying something about how one day, just his fly boots, they were just causing a little bit of irritation to the back of his foot, and that just wrapped everything up for the case that I was working on. We don't think about it in the way that you said it, it's like once it's a high sensitivity area, they will always be so tuned in of any funky stuff that goes on back there.

Yeah, so it was like this past spring, I think, he had his fly boots had rubbed like the back of his heels just a tiny bit, and I got on to ride him, and I was riding him in renegade boots, so they have like the heel captivator that wraps around the heel, and they wrapped around right over where the fly boot had rubbed them, and I didn't think much of it because the heel captivator is super soft and squishy.

And we were just going on a short little ride, and he was a menace the whole ride, and just like throwing his head and like mad when, which was like uncharacteristic of him, because sometimes if he doesn't feel well, his go-to is like, as soon as I get on, and I'm like, all right, let's go, he'll stop and he'll turn around, and he'll bite the toe of my boot and just not let go.

And that's his way of being like, don't you dare kick me.

We're not going to do this today. So he'll do that if he's not feeling well, but this day he went on and then a couple of minutes into the ride, he was just throwing his head and just throwing a tantrum. And I'm like, what is your deal?

Part of me is like, this is awful behavior. And then I'm like, my horse doesn't have awful behavior.

He doesn't do this.

And it didn't register in my mind until we got off and I took the boots off. And I saw that the boots were rubbing the heel rubs. And I was like, he's so, he has like, trauma, really, of having pain in the back of his heels, the back of his foot that he had pain back there today.

And he was like, I can't do it. I can't do this.

He just could not handle any kind of hypersensitivity there.

Because even to this day, if he gets like a small little amount of thrush in any of his frogs, I immediately can see it in how he's walking. Because he's like, it hurts. I can't do it.

So I'm like, it was like surface level on the skin.

It shouldn't have been a big deal, but it was.

But it was on his heel and he was like, and so I put Desitin on everything. I'm like the dad on my Greek wedding that puts Windex on everything. That's me, but with Desitin.

I covered it with Desitin for like a week until they dried up and healed. Then we went on another ride and everything was great and butterflies again. But yeah, I was like, okay.

Sorry, buddy.

I hear you. I'm so loud and clear.

They're so sensitive to those things and even just the sugar sensitivity causing just that little bit inflammation. Kahlan, when they're so sensitive and there's so much stuff going on back there, there's less room for the inflammation.

There's no margin for error.

None. Well, and that's what I had like the biggest aha moment last fall. When Ida came here and gave her class, he had been like he was fine, but he wasn't 100 percent like I could tell he just wasn't totally comfortable and I couldn't figure out I would put boots and pads and stuff and it wasn't making a difference and I couldn't figure out why.

Then she made a comment during her lecture that horses that have navicular changes, but they're also insulin resistant if they have sugar and they start having a little bit of subclinical laminitis, that inflammatory blood flow is now going through those enlarged vascular channels in their navicular bone and so they're going to have pain in that navicular area because of the laminitic symptoms that they're experiencing.

I was like, I was like, oh my God, oh my God, you know, and sure enough, I put the muzzle on him and within two weeks, he was fine.

I need everyone to hear that very clearly because people think we're crazy about the muzzles.

No, I am crazy about the muzzles, but like for good reason, you know.

It makes sense.

So now it's like anytime, God bless him, he's been in the muzzle all year because the grass out there is pretty, it won't die. It won't die. So he's just been in the muzzle all year long because if I try and take it off of them and let him graduate out of it, within a couple of days, he's not moving 100% and I'm like turning tight and just not right.

We put the muzzle on and he goes back to comfort and I'm like, sorry.

I hate it for you.

It makes such a huge difference and it's so nice that you have the program of what keeps him comfortable.

That's so much of it, like figuring out exactly what they want, exactly the trim they want, exactly the package they want, exactly how sensitive they are, if they have any grass sensitivity, like what's their exercise regimen? Should they be ridden more? Should they be ridden less?

Do they just need to walk on their own or do they really need the assistance of exercise and like walking over poles and the biomechanics stuff? It's exhausting. It's great because it's like, you know, it's really empowering when you figure out the program.

But like, yeah, my God.

- Listening to Owners and Building Empathy

Yeah, I mean, it's also one of those things that's like, because I obsess over him because he's, you know, he's my darling child. And I obsess over him and I see him over day. He's the reason why my life is what it is now.

But he's also mine. And so he will tell me things that he doesn't necessarily tell everybody all the time. So like when I'm talking to other owners and they're like, I know this sounds crazy.

And I'm like, it doesn't, it doesn't.

Keep going.

Because you know your horse. Well, the vet says nothing's wrong. I know, but you know your horse.

And so, you know, you should expand on that and investigate further because your horse isn't always going to be the same for everybody. But they're going to be honest with you. And so, like, it's good.

You got to be the one to listen to them.

That's what makes you so good at what you do, though. Like, I cannot, I cannot explain to you how meaningful that was to my personal journey with navicular. Like, you are so empowering to owners.

You said to me, yeah, well, my horse was fucking navicular because he had central sulcus infection his whole life. And I had no idea what that was. You know, you'll figure it out.

Like, you just need to support. And I was like, what, like, it's potentially going to be okay.

I love her.

Yeah. No, Kahlan, in your podcast episode, you said it felt like I slapped you in the face with a tortilla. It did.

Because I, like, I was like, oh dear.

But it was a good thing. The vet is, you know my story with the vet, but she didn't say that word to me. So when you said that to me, I was like, what are you fucking talking about?

That's not true. His foot just hurts. The back of his foot hurts.

Okay, well, that's the same fucking thing. Like, he has bottle hoof pain. I didn't know what that meant.

Just like you didn't know Central Sulcus Infection. Like, it's just gaps in our knowledge and that's how we help each other to like get to what makes it work for them. It's just really empowering that you're able to say that to your clients.

- From One Horse to a Hoof-Care Career

So like, how did you go from, oh my gosh, I did it. I have magic powers. I can trim my own horse to taking clients.

That, I think that was just, I just had caught the bug because I trimmed him and then he didn't grow fast enough for me to trim him every day and I wanted to trim more, you know.

So I was like, I started asking friends if I could trim their horses and then I was like, well, I should probably take the rest of the classes and then I got the certification and then it just went from trimming friends of friends' horses and horses of people I didn't know.

And so then I was like, well, I should probably make it legitimate.

And then I came to my husband, I was like, hey, what would you think about if I quit my job? And I like trimmed horse feet for a living. And he was like, what?

And I like did the math for him and I'm like, no, no, no. Like I can still make money if I do this. And then I don't have to do corporate anymore.

And he was like, if you can make the same money, then I'm not going to argue with you. And so I sat down and I made my spreadsheet and I'm like, all I got to do is this many clients a day and I can do it. And so I set the goal and I worked seven days a week, nights and weekends around the corporate job until I got enough that I could do it.

How long did you juggle both? How long were you doing that for both?

Like four months, six months, I think, from November to April.

So you were just like going to your office job in your blazer with like rasp gashes on your arms?

A hundred percent.

Amazing. Incredible. Yeah.

That's great.

Yeah. Because you built fast, too. You built quick.

I did.

Yeah.

I did. It grew really fast. But I mean, just like, you know, you and I kind of started right around the same time, and there was a huge need.

Like, Casey was the only one.

Yeah.

You know?

Because we came in.

There's just...

Go ahead.

Yeah. I would say there's just so many horses in this area. There really is way more horses than there are hoof care providers.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because we came in. You finished your CERT... Did you say 2020 was it?

2020?

2020, 2021.

2021? Okay. Yeah.

So, yeah, we started... And I apprenticed with Casey in 2020, I want to say. So, yeah, we came on scene, like, about the same time.

Yeah. I just held on to the desk job for a little bit longer. I don't know why.

And you had body work too. Like, you had a bunch of other moving parts.

Oh, yeah. She always does. I always forgot about that.

So, why don't you share a little bit about what you have done with your career? Because it is incredibly impressive, my friend.

Like, with the trimming or with the farm?

Yeah. Well, okay. So, talk about your practice.

Tell us about your practice and then how that evolved into the farm. Let's do that.

Well, I'm now a full-time Hoofcare provider. So, just like Taylor, I do barefoot trimming and glue- on and composite shoes for rehab and performance horses.

It grew. I didn't have a plan for what I wanted it to grow into. I remember one of the first times that I talked to Taylor, she was like, you asked me something about, do you have a particular discipline that you would like to be in or a category that you want your practice to focus on?”

And I was like, horses? Yeah. You know, like, I don't know.

And like, I didn't, I grew up just riding my horse in the backyard. So I didn't really know a lot of formal disciplines to be honest with you. And so I was like, performance would be cool, but I really love rehab.

But also if I only trim donkeys in people's front yard for the rest of forever, I'm cool with that too.

And so, but I just like, I really fell in love with the rehab cases that, and even the cases that people don't realize are rehab, but the ones that are rooted in just like making them healthy in their feet so that their biomechanics can move the way that they're supposed to, having that impact and talking to them about diet as well. And so it just, yeah, I started, I think I finally completed my certification in 2021.

The day that I graduated, I got a phone call from a potential client at the time. And she was like, I have these lesson horses that do eventing, and I think I'm interested in the glue-on shoes. And mind you, I just graduated.

Like I'm still in Illinois. I had learned how to do glue-ons like 30 minutes prior to this phone call.

The glue still hasn't set.

It's still setting. I was like, yes, I do glue-on shoes.

Had a girl.

And bring it on. I got there and I explained to her, I literally just learned how to do them. So I don't actually have any of the stuff to do them, but I do know how if you really do want to do it.

- Rehab Boarding and Farm Facilities

That's awesome.

They're living at the Ritz.

They are.

Yeah.

I'm really pissed off that I moved 900 miles away right when you were ready with the track. I'm really mad about that, but it's fine.

I'm happy for you.

Then within the boarding facility, you also have your rehab. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

I do. Technically, there's a second track that I want to build eventually. That's going to be like the formal rehab in time.

Instead, I take rehab cases and I just put them on the current track that we have.

The horses can come and we put together a rehab plan for them while they're here, if they're going to need shoes or if they're going to need boots, and what we're going to do with their diet because we bring them in. Board on the track includes a forage-based mineral balance diet that goes along with the hay that I have shipped in from North Carolina that we test. That's low sugar, low starch hay.

We balance everything to it, and all that's included with board.

Then if your horse needs additional host care support with gluonfuse or boots, then we'll talk about that, and I handle it every day if I got one out there in boots right now and I take it off, I do the baby powder, I do all the things to keep them comfortable and do whatever it is that we need to do.

And then we just do like check ins with the owner every week on progress that we're making and what we need to expect moving forward.

That's incredible.

I love that so much. And you've 54 acres, and you have how many pastures for, because you also offer, there's a bunch of pasture board that's set up out there too.

Yeah, so we've got four pasture board pastures that range from like five to eight acres each. Oh, damn. And we've got a trail that goes around the whole property, and we've got a little obstacle course and an arena and a creek that you can ride the horses through.

So King and I, this whole place is designed for King, really. But naturally, King and I don't, we don't enjoy riding in arenas anymore. Like I get bored going in a circle.

He doesn't love going in circles. So I wanted to have a place that offered a lot of other options.

So we have a full obstacle course, some trail obstacles that you can practice with and do groundwork if you want to.

You don't necessarily have to ride your horse to play with your horse here. And we've got trails that walk all around the property. So, you know, there's a variety of things that we can do here to keep the horses happy.

- Clinics and Educational Events

Man, you're living the dream. You're making the dream.

I am. That's awesome.

Oh, that's so good.

Imagine telling your 10-year-old self that.

I know.

That's awesome.

How happy do you think she would be, 10-year-old Sara?

I think she'd be super happy. She'd probably be like, I still don't know.

I don't know what it means, but sounds fine.

If I could go back and tell 10-year-old Sara to just treat the thrush, then maybe everything would be different.

But don't tell her that, then.

It's fine.

No, because it wouldn't be happening. Man. So another part, too, you do host quite a few clinics at the farm as well, which is awesome.

There's a couple coming up. There's one in December, and there's one next month in November, too, right?

There's one in November for graduates, graduates of Ida Hammer's program. We're going to do like a gluon shoe, like advanced gluon shoe skills kind of class for people that are just starting to offer gluons and want to, you know, because, you know, when you first start gluons, it's hard. It's chaos, and it's a lot of money, and you kind of feel alone, and you know, what am I doing wrong?

A lot of that kind of stuff. So it's sort of just a class for everyone to get together and troubleshoot things together and learn some tips and tricks and stuff that we've come up with. And then in December, I think it's December 5th, the first Saturday in December, is I will be teaching Ida Hammers Exploring the Equine Hoof course.

So it's like a intro course for owners and any, I'm truly a healthcare practitioners, owners, body workers, any horse enthusiast should come to this class, cause we'll talk about just the basic anatomy of hooves and things that all owners should know.

We're gonna talk about thrush in great detail and other like just distortions and deviations that you might see when there's owners that are like, I don't know what it is about his foot, but I feel like something's not right.

We're gonna talk about what that something probably is and what it means and why it's there, what you can do about it, you know?

So I have a friend that I'm gonna send to you.

Send them all. It's gonna be a super fun, super fun class. We hosted it last year with Ida.

And so this year I'll be teaching it. And then we're actually gonna donate a good bit of the profits back to her because she's been a full-time caretaker for her better half while she battles cancer lately, so she's not been able to work. So we're gonna host the class and then donate some of the money back.

So we're hoping we get a big crowd.

That's so admirable.

You hear that, everybody?

I'll be there. And we're gonna Skype in, Kayla.

Yay.

I'll be in a different country, but I will Skype in.

It's okay. We'll show your face in the video.

Oh, yeah.

We've got the second building that's the class, it's the rehab barn slash classroom. And so it's been a great place to host a couple of clinics. And I really hope I want to host a lot more next year.

- Sara’s Navicular Case Checklist

I want to try and at least host one clinic per quarter. And not just, it doesn't have to be like Hoofcare-based clinics. Like we did the Positive Reinforcement one.

Yeah, that was so fun.

With Meg, yeah.

This is fun. It's a fun spot to host clinics and just time for... I like having a room where everybody can learn and no one needs to feel vulnerable, no one needs to feel judged because we're all just here to learn and do better for our horses.

And that's awesome.

Well, and it's really enjoyable there because it's a pretty environment. Like you make it so welcoming. It's all good people that are showing up.

Like it's fun.

Thank you.

Yeah.

It is good vibes over there because I've been over there how many times now. We've done a bunch of just like tremor gatherings.

We've done a bunch of fun stuff. Yeah.

And it's just, it's like second home. Like it's so chill over there. Yeah.

You've done such a great job. It's, oh, I love it.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. So impressive.

Thank you.

What is within your practice? Okay. But what is your step by step if you get to a case that's deemed navicular?

Because I have like weird feelings about the name of it because I feel like it keeps changing.

I was going to say, we've said it a lot of times and it's making me a little nervous.

Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like I don't like it.

I just say back of the foot pain. That's what I go with.

I mean, I'll tell you.

What's your checklist?

At least for me, the word doesn't make me nervous anymore. It doesn't. And I think that will, you'll get better with that because you're going to, you know, the better your horse looks and feels, the less heavy that that word is going to register, I think, to you.

So like when I hear the word that my horse has been diagnosed with navicular, I'm like, okay, and my horse has spots, you know? Yeah, not a big deal. It doesn't define them, you know?

But my, I guess, step by step is my first question is, do you have x-rays? Because I have experienced cases where a horse has been, I guess, labeled as navicular, but x-rays were never taken. And so I'm like, okay, well, technically, that's not true.

Like we can't do that.

Yeah. In a sentence, he'll prove him guilty.

Exactly. So I'll ask for x-rays, we'll look into x-rays or make sure that proper x-rays are taken.

And then if they haven't gotten x-rays taken, then I will advise them to get them taken.

But then I will also sort of like give them a pep talk beforehand and just say like, hey, if they do have navicular changes, you might hear the vets say this, that and the other, tough decision in a couple of months. Don't worry about that. We're going to talk about it later, you know, like don't go home and cry and think everything is over like I did, kind of thing.

And so then we'll get the x-rays and we'll, you know, understand and agree. And then we talk about diet. We talk about brush and talk about whatever it takes to get them landing heel first.

And that's, you know, that's, I mean, really, those are your three steps to success. If you can get them to land heel first and be comfortable and confident heel first, then you're going to have a sound horse. And the navicular is not going to be a problem anymore, as long as they are landing heel first.

So that's, we do whatever it takes, whether that's shoes or pads or boots or hoof armor, or just putting a muzzle on.

Maybe they're just a little fat. So many horses are a little fat.

- X-Rays, Individualized Trims, and Communication

Yeah.

A little.

I feel like, and this might derail things a little bit, but fuck it. I feel like almost navicular rads are on par with kissing spine rads because I don't really give a shit.

It's all movement.

It's all how they're moving their bodies.

It's all, I tell everybody that X-rays are a helpful tool to know more about your horse, but at the same time, it's a two-dimensional image that's attached to a three-dimensional living being. And so the horse gets the final say. My horse's X-rays say that he should probably be dead, and he is very much not, and he is happy and sound.

So, you know, X-rays are important to know, but they don't get the final say. The horse gets the final say.

Yeah. I feel like that's so much, like, specifically with hoof rehab of different kinds, it's what the horse particularly wants. Like, you have to be so good at, as a hoof care provider, like, listening to the little things, like we were talking about earlier with his fly boots, anything can set them off, but also anything can make such a big positive difference too.

Like, for me, just, he's not really truly self-trimming, like he would on a, you know, say a 50-acre track. But if we do a traditional trim, it's too much. So it's just like, they're just particular.

Like, you have to figure out exactly how they like to be treated. It puts a lot of responsibility, not just on the hoof care providers, but the owners to like look at their horse more deeply. And I mean, I don't know, it's like, I don't like to use the word blessing in disguise, but like, that's kind of what I'm trying to convey.

Like, it's almost like a, it's a hidden gem because you end up learning way more than you ever knew you could about your horse and you become so sensitive to them and you become so like aware of their needs. And aware, it's like you're feeling what they're feeling on another level when you have these diagnoses that feel so bleak, you just become so much more sensitive to them.

Yeah, and they are, they can be extra sensitive and it's like the littlest things. Like I think, I said something in the group text at one point. My horse, I, you know, just decided one time like a year ago that I wasn't going to trim his bars.

I was going to leave his bars alone to just see.

Yeah.

Because I had trimmed his bars really nice and pretty the time before that and his foot looked really pretty, but he didn't walk off comfortable on his heels at the barn where Kahlan and I were at the time, which had a nice soft dirt floor. So it should have been no problem, but he wasn't totally confident. I'm like, that's weird.

Maybe I'll do something different next time. And so the next time all I did was just didn't trim his bars and he was 100% confident landing heel first walking off after that. And so like something that small and little can make a difference for them.

And so it's just a matter of like as the hoof care provider taking notes and being conscious of all those things. But then, because I also can get scatterbrained sometimes, I'll tell the owner, I'll say, hey, I did not trim his bars this time and he's walking way more comfortable. So let's, I will say, let's make sure that we don't do that next time.

Yeah.

And that's maybe like, hold me accountable.

Yeah.

Like we're going to make sure that this is what this is what keeps him happy. So that's what we're going to do.

So this sounds dumb, but I'm not a failure. Do you, as the provider, watch them walk off every single time? Like every client or every client that has an issue, do you always watch them walk off every time?

Because that's new to me, having like women like you in my life as opposed to traditional failures.

Like I never, before Taylor had someone watch my horse walk up and walk away every single time. Not just an intro, like, hey, I'm getting to know this horse, like every single time.

I do, I watch the horse walk off every single time. I, I'll admit that I'm guilty that I don't a hundred percent of the time watch them walk up.

Well, sometimes you can't do, yeah.

If I get there and the horse is already like there and waiting for me or something, then you just can't do it. Sometimes I'm guilty and I don't have them. If it's like an active rehab case, I will take them out of the cross ties and walk them.

But otherwise, every time I do watch them walk away after we trimmed.

That's huge. That's made it.

I never had a failure to do that prior. No. I know.

When I read that on all of Pete Ramey's sides, I was like, never in my life.

Watch them walk. They just leave. I don't know.

They just go.

They're busy people, but it's such a big deal. Because again, I'm not a provider, but it's not normal for your horse to walk off in pain after a trim.

No.

I cannot tell you for how many years, for how many dozens and dozens of horses, I thought that was normal for her. It is very much not.

No. It happens. Yeah.

But it's happening for a reason. It's not happening because that's just like cool and fine. Yeah.

No, it's definitely not fine, but it happens and then there's troubleshooting that needs to be done and there's things that need to be communicated because I'll also tell owners, I'll watch them walk off, but that's 60 seconds after the trim. They could still be sore from the trim, 48 to 36 hours. If he shows up sore on Tuesday or Wednesday, I still need you to tell me because it's probably trim related and we can adjust it moving forward.

Having an open line of communication with the owners is critical to keeping a horse happy and comfortable every time you're trimming. I mean, would you agree, Taylor? Oh, yeah.

And I think also going back to like, when we were speaking about the client being able to recognize comfort and the little things like when you said that when you were watching King walk way back before at the start, he would actually shove sand out, he would flick sand. So little things that the client can do to help them recognize little things or another thing like if they're walking on concrete, you can hear them scuff. That's a big one too.

- Movement Quality, Training, and Toe-First Landings

So just like little nuances that we can help clients to be able to recognize those little things. We can see wear patterns, but also it's kind of nice to just know in between. And then also like another part, just bringing in, if this is a horse that is in a training facility, if the trainer is involved, because the way the horse is going and being taught to go is also a huge piece.

And that's why everyone needs to go to Sara's clinic. So they can learn these things.

Yes.

Take notes. Yes, that would be great.

It's going to be a full house. We'll all come.

I hope so. I really hope so.

Oh yeah. But I was listening to, just going back to the movement thing, the quality of movement, Kahlan Port. I've been like blowing up her phone, just like sending her stuff lately.

I've been on this.

I love it.

Okay, good. But just- I love it so much.

But the way that they go, and I'm probably going to get in trouble for a lot of it, but I was listening to a Patrick King podcast a while ago. Do you listen to him at all? No?

He has some really good people on, and he was on with- who was it? I think it was Paul Balasic, who is my trainer's mentor.

And Patrick said something about, you're either working towards engagement or you're working towards an avicular. I was like, oh, damn. Oh.

Oh, shit.

Yeah.

That hits.

Yeah, that hit. And the more I've been looking into things, we do understand that acute injury does happen. Thrust 100 percent is a thing.

I'm still not sold on genetics. I don't know about you. What do you think?

Sara, what's your thoughts on that?

With navicular disease?

Yeah, predisposition for it.

I don't know.

I know. I don't know either.

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah.

TBD.

Yeah.

But the more like long and low and just throwing them on, dumping them on the forehand and just letting them romp about, they're overloading the sheer forces on the soft tissue and the front limbs. It's disproportionate. And you know, you do that repeatedly, it's going to be consistent trauma.

And over time, acute will just, or chronic will just kind of creep in, and there you go.

Well, yeah, it was, what was it? It was Dr. James Rooney that did the first test where he took a cadaver limb and he, I don't know, put it on a machine and had it land toe first a thousand times.

And he could immediately show the damage, the soft tissue damage that came before the navicular bone damage that showed up because of the toe first landings that that foot was experiencing.

So, I mean, yeah, I think that's a pretty impactful quote from your podcast for sure.

Yeah, that's, I don't even think he meant to like say it. I think it was just something that just kind of like rolled off the tongue and it just like smacked me.

It's like, yeah. And like Taylor and I plan to go way more in depth on this in another episode, but like we're all taught that that's the goal, right? Like we're taught that at least I was, and I've taught plenty of people this, like, oh, your horse is, you know, they've got their head down, they're, you know, just springing along.

Stretching over the back.

Yeah. Yeah. But they're number one, they're not truly stretching over their back.

That's not how that works. But number two, you're just driving them into the ground. Even if it doesn't feel like that, even if it feels that like light and springy, that's very rarely what's actually happening.

Like usually they're just completely strung out. Like you think, oh, you're getting them under themselves and you're allowing them to stretch forward. I know personally, I will be vulnerable and say like, I thought that was a good thing.

And I could easily achieve that with my horse. But now I realize it's because it was easier than him actually picking himself up and landing correctly. And I used to get compliments on it all the time.

Like, he's damn near kicking himself in the chin because he's so relaxed and stretched down.

When really it's because that's all he could do. Like I basically like trained him for the wrong, I'll use the word frame, but like for the wrong movement.

And I look back at old videos, just like you were saying with the sand flinging. I'm like, oh, jab, jab, jab. And it's like, you know, it's hard when the people around you, the professionals around you or your friends or you know, just trusted, your trusted grownups when you're coming up in horses, they're like, that's what you want.

That's the goal. Like that's a relaxed horse that's moving correctly. And then you just do that.

And that's the goal for years and years and years. And I always felt like I could, at the beginning of this navicular journey, when I was trying to convince the people around me to see what I was feeling, just like you, like, you know, everyone says, oh, they're fine. They're fine.

They're, they're literally fine because they're not head bobbing lame. But there's this shortness in the front that you feel that's, like, unmistakable. Like, I may not see it on someone else's horse that's navicular, but I could get on them and tell you, like, oh, shit, like, they're, I can feel that they're toe jabbing with, with my eyes closed up here, with head, like, earmuffs on.

You can just feel it. And on the, on the, like, on a circle and in a corner, like, in a really deep corner, you can, I mean, it almost feels like that bicycle feeling where they're, like, a bicycle that's going to fall over, but they're, like, chopping at the ground. And I'm really excited to get into it with Taylor in another episode, because we have something, something that we have.

It's a whole can of worms.

Yeah.

It's a Costco-sized can of worms. It's awesome.

It is, yeah. But it's just, it's like, how do we, what do we teach instead? You know, like, where do we go from here?

- Asking the Horse and Using the Support Toolbox

We know that we need to stop doing that, but where do we go from here? Like, what are our resources for making sure that, yes, our horse is relaxed and like that, you have that looseness in the front, but make sure that it's true looseness, like teaching people what to look for, but then also what to train instead of that is so hard. And I'm like, it's like, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Oh yeah. I say all the time, I say the more you know, the worse it gets.

Yeah. Oh, Jesus.

That's true.

Ignorance really was bliss.

I know, I know.

Oh, it was such a great time, like 20 years ago. And here we are. Great.

Just eating oats and running in a grassy field and everything was fine.

We fed Clofite and wore lollipop pads and sweet feed, and we were good.

Yeah.

A lot of the, I don't know, I think I don't, I feel incorrect, like, taking credit for a lot of, like, success with cases or progress with cases because I don't necessarily always know the right answer when I go into it. I just ask the horses and I let them tell me. And I'm not afraid to get the wrong answer.

You know, it's very humbling, and I get frustrated when I don't get the right answer. But like, to me, it's like, I've tried in the beginning, because I can be kind of a type A person, and I tried in the beginning to learn all the methods that have like all the rules that you've got to follow. And if you follow step one through 10 and you trim this textbook perfect foot, then everything's going to be perfect.

And that's not how it works.

You know, I'm like, if I trim the textbook perfect trim and the horse likes it, then that's great.

We're all on the same page of this textbook. But most horses, if I go and I trim this foot that looks perfect in a textbook, and they walk off and they don't like it, then the perfect trim is wrong, you know?

And I just have to figure out what's right for that one horse. And I just do stuff until I figure out what's right for that horse. And, you know, so like really, I'm not the one that finds the right answer.

It's the horse that tells me the right answer. So I like, I'm kind of, I don't know, I feel like I'm like cheating.

No, you're not. That is the right answer. Asking the horses is always the right answer.

It's like, I don't, I think I try, there's like, I try to be confident with everything I'm doing because to some degree, I have an idea of what I'm doing. But for the most part, I am just guessing and hoping the horse likes it, you know?

We've come off very confident. Well, thank you. I am not intimidated by people, but when I met you, I was like, oh, this girl knows what the fuck's going on.

Like, I need to behave. Because she knows what's up. Like, she's smarter than me, and I'm scared she knows it.

No, I'm absolutely not.

But you're just like the sweetest, humblest person. You just are a fantastic listener. It's like, I hate when people use the word, like, oh, you're a horse whisperer, because it's like, we should not be whispering.

They're the ones who should be whispering to us. Like, we're the ones who have to learn the language, and you speak horse. Like, it's that simple.

I mean, you can thank my horse for that one, because I think I just...

I do.

I love that guy. Every day I'd ask him, I'm like, are you okay? Are you okay?

He's like, shut up. I'm like, no, I need to know. I need you to tell me.

Use your words, Kate.

But it's just like, even with Loki, Kahlan, when we first started doing stuff with him, and we put shoes on him, you were like, he's good with the shoes, but he just moves better with the clouds, and I'm like, well, then we just go back to the clouds. If that's what he likes better, then that's just what we need to do. Sorry, that's more work on you, that you have to put baby powder in a foot every single day, but that's okay.

We did clouds for probably a year.

Yeah.

That sounds right.

Yeah. Now, he's graduated and we're just in when we ride or when he needs, like you said, if he busts a move too much or in my case, it'll be like if he didn't move enough that week with his friends, because he is in a smaller area, like if I couldn't move him enough, because it's on me, I don't have a track. Stupid Texas.

But I can tell the difference. I'm like, he needs the support. He needs to go back in his boots, not while I'm riding.

So it's just like so much can change day to day, week to week. And season to season. I've noticed his coat got darker.

And so I'm staring at him like, be sound.

Something changed. Don't be crazy.

Don't do anything crazy. It's exhausting, but it's fun. It's fine.

Everything's fine. Everything's fine. It's great.

We're doing great. We're learning. That's what matters.

It's a moving target. And it's one of those things where the finish line is always moving. But we have all these tools in our toolbox on how we can support them.

You guys are my tools in my toolbox.

Y'all are my tools.

You are one for us as well.

I got one of you in each pocket.

Happy to be there.

That's my favorite thing about our group is that I feel like this group of connections that we have, and we've got Kahlan for nutrition and Molly for nutrition, and we've got this circle of body workers that we're all friends with, and the circle of swimmers that we're all friends with, that a lot of us, we all got into this for a reason.

It was to help horses, or it was like me with one particular horse, and so it became a passion, and all of us are so eager and happy to help each other.

There's no ego within these circles that we have, and I don't know how we made it, because you don't hear about it in a lot of other places, but it's a really, really awesome thing.

Yeah, I think we're all so excited. Like Kahlan, when I've got a nutrition question, I don't have to necessarily dive down that wormhole, because I can just ask someone that I know already knows it, is the best thing ever.

We are spoiled.

It's pretty amazing.

We're spoiled. I mean, even five hours ago, Sara, you helped me with that navicular case even, and we just have each other. This is rare.

This is a really awesome.

It's rare, but it's so wonderful. I'm so grateful for it.

Likewise.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I would be unwell without you guys.

Without the knowledge and support that you guys have provided for me and my son, I would be dead. I would just have melted into a puddle of tears. It just would not have been.

- Success Stories and Hope for Navicular Horses

That's why we say it somehow comes around every episode. That's why we do this, because we want people to feel like they're not alone. Before we had rescheduled, Sara, Taylor and I were talking about more.

This actually went back to the long and low thing. More people need to hear the success stories of navicular especially, because it's such a hopeless diagnosis.

I think the point that you're trying to make, Kahlan, is really important in that you feel like it's valuable to share more success stories that people know, because a lot of what the vets are saying is still very terminal.

So when you slapped me in the face with a tortilla and told me my horse was navicular, I was like, how dare she? But then I was like, okay, this bitch actually knows what the fuck is going on. I should listen to her.

Because you literally were driving up in your silent ass hybrid. You were always behind me and I was like, oh my God, he's right there because her car is so quiet. It's completely silent and you were like, hey.

I was like, hey. You had asked me how it went because you knew I had my appointment and whatever. I immediately was like, she told me, he has a hoof injury.

She doesn't know what it is. There's no use getting an MRI or an ultrasound because you won't be able to see it. If you can, there's nothing you can do about it.

He's going to be lame forever. Your options are donate him to a hospital or pass to arrest him and he's a pet forever. I spent my 48 hours on the floor.

Then you came up to me and I told you that. You were like, oh, yeah, he's navicular. Mine was too.

It'd be like that sometimes. We'll be fine. We'll figure it out.

I was like, what? You zoomed off in your silent car and I was like, what are you doing? What just happened?

Okay, bye.

Literally, what just happened? You're like, all right, see you tomorrow. And I was like, what the fuck?

My horse is navicular?

I didn't say that.

And so then, because you had said that, like, he'd never had steel shoes on. Like, he'd never, and I was always a barefoot girly. And so I didn't, like, there wasn't anything for me to transition, really.

And so I started looking into, like, as soon as I got home that night, I researched navicular as much as I possibly could, and I still do now. And I found Alicia, and I went back to the navicular as not, navicular is not the end of the story or something, whatever. She highlights different people's success stories.

And I have listened to that episode so many fucking times. Because I didn't know that was possible, dude. Like, I get so frustrated because it could have been as easy as, well, you know, have you talked to your farrier about this?

Um, have you considered, but everybody knows about Boots. I knew about Boots. I just didn't know that he'd leave his life.

Yeah. Like, I didn't consider that. I knew he wasn't liminitic.

I knew his feet from the outside looked beautiful. So why would I think about Boots? Like, I don't know.

Like, I don't know. And that's why as many stories as we can, I want to highlight because they all just like every other disease state or issue or biomechanical divergence, they all present differently. Like, Kings came from somewhere different than mine, different than the next horse.

And the treatment plan was different. But the through line is that you just had to listen to him and kind of figure it out. Like, and then there's people that are resources for you and resources for me.

And like, I don't know, it just, I want to scream it from the mountaintops that there is hope for this.

Yeah.

Like, you just got to ride with your husband in the rain and your horse was fine. Like, you just got it, you know?

Yeah.

And, you know, last week I got to go on a trail ride and go chase birds with my horse.

Yay.

And like, I don't know, it's just, I could say it forever.

And you should, and you need to, like, I think it's, it is important for, like, these kind of stories to be told and to be published to give, like, to give owners, to give owners hope and, you know, the chance to think that maybe it doesn't have to be terminal.

But like, I also think that it's important for these stories to be shown and told and talked about with our vets as well. Because, you know, some of them make these diagnoses because it's what they were taught or it's what they've seen.

They've probably seen countless number of horses with terrible navicular x-rays that never did achieve soundness, or they followed all of the rules in the textbook of putting wedge shoes on or whatever steel contraption that needs to be put on only for them to be sound for a little while and then moving forward, you know.

Well, and change nothing else.

And change nothing else. And so it's like, well, we've done all the things that you're, quote unquote, supposed to do, and the horse still ends up lame. So, you know, here I'm talking to my patient's owner and I don't want them to go down the road of spending thousands of dollars on all these shoes when I know that the horse is going to end up lame in the end anyway.

So we might as well just accept him being lame now. You know, and so if it's just as important for owners to know that it's possible and it can be done as much as it is, if not more, for vets to know it too and to see it.

Yeah.

So, I mean, my vet today is still the same vet that told me I'd probably have to put him down.

Yeah.

And she sees him now just living his best life and she takes his x-rays and she's like, these don't look different. And I'm like, heck no, they don't look any different, you know. So like she's, and you know, just that one case and that's not, I don't know how she makes diagnoses with anybody else, you know, out there, but like, just having that one in her mind, she's like, okay, well, obviously he didn't die in three months.

Yeah. That was a good decision to not put him down.

So like, it's just, it's these, these success stories are, I think they're important to share for everybody. So that, you know, everybody knows that it's possible and that there's an option, you know.

It's not progressive. It's not degenerative.

Yes. If you go back in time and talk to crying Sara just after getting that diagnosis, what would you have said to her?

I usually say that that doesn't scare me. I'm not real worried about it. And we can figure out how to make them comfortable.

Perfect.

You know, it's just like I said, like that, as time has gone on that the word nevicular just isn't as heavy to me as it once was, because most of the time we can still figure out a way to make them comfortable. Can they go on to be a training level eventer? Probably, maybe we've got to, you know, do all the steps and all the things it takes to rehab them.

- King Comes Back to Sara

But we can, we can make them comfortable again. It's going to take effort, but we can do it.

And then you drive off in your silent car.

And then I say, okay, bye.

That's the quietest mic draw. Oh, thank you so much, Sara.

Yeah, I should, I want to say one other fun story, and you don't even have to include this in the podcast because I don't care. But when, so I had King, I got King when I was like 14 or 15, and I had him all throughout high school, and I had him all throughout college. And my parents did help me pay for board when I had him in college.

And then when I graduated college, my dad was like, I'm not spending another dime on horses as long as I live. You're an adult and he is your burden. And I had just taken a corporate job that I was going to be traveling 60 percent of the time and I wasn't making that much money.

And so I was like, well, I have to sell him. And so I did, I sold him. I graduated college and I sold him.

And he was so bad for the new owner that I got him back for free.

I wanted to ask you, I wanted to ask you about that. What? I wasn't sure if you wanted to share that?

Because I was like, oh no, he was a devil. Oh yeah. He was absolutely awful.

He wanted his mommy.

He threw her off. She broke ribs. It was bad.

Like she thought that I had drugged him and tricked her into buying this god-awful horse. And she, well, I mean, full circle here. And so she thought that I had drugged him and tricked her and she was going to send him to auction.

And her cousin, bless her cousin, said, you can't send that horse to auction. He's too pretty.

Cause he's got, he's got two blue eyes.

She said, he's too pretty. So she took him and then she found my phone number on his Coggins paper. And she called me, this was a year later.

She called me and asked if I wanted him back. And I was like, I was like, how much do you want for him? And she was like, no, no, no, you just can't take him.

And this was, this was the day before my wedding. And I was like, I was like, listen, I'm getting married tomorrow. So could you just hold on to him for maybe like one more month and then I can come and get him.

And so, and she did, she paid board for him to live in Winder for that month. And then I came and I got him and we've had him ever since.

Sara, I have so much respect for you asking to wait and not postponing your wedding. Cause I'd be like, John, hold on. I just, we have to hold on.

Just stop everything. It'll be real quick. I'm just gonna go pick him up real quick.

I'll wear the dress and then it'll be fine.

- Closing, Services, and Outro

Yeah, it'll be fine.

You just wait here.

Yeah, and stay right there.

No way. Oh, that's so funny.

So yeah, that's hilarious. He wanted his mommy. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us, Sara.

I've missed you so much. It's been really hard to be so far away from my people, but I'm so glad we get to do this.

This was so fun.

Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for coming on, girl.

And if you or anyone you know wants to reach out to Sara for any of her amazing services such as barrier services, she's a hoof care provider, she can do your composites, she can do your boot fitting, she's a dealer. Don't forget, our girl's a dealer. Or track rehab, boarding, just being a really good friend.

She's probably good at braiding. She's got long, beautiful hair. Anything you could possibly dream of.

We'll link everything below and make sure to check out her arm page because she's got some really cool events coming up that you and your friends should be part of.

Come in December. And what was that one called again, Sara?

December 6th, we're hosting Exploring the Equine Hoof.

Be there.

It's the introductory class for all kinds of people.

Beautiful.

Amazing. Thank you. We'll link everything below and make sure to tag you on Facebook.

And then you need to send us my favorite part of this entire project of The Red Mare Project. You need to send us the picture that you want to be on our Facebook page for the week. Okay.

Yay.

Because we always change the picture to highlight our guests.

So many.

I am sure you do. Send us a cute one of you and King because he's so cute.

I will. I will.

Thank you so much, Sara.

No problem.

Love you guys.

Love you. You're hanging up? Oh, shit.

I thought we were doing a fake goodbye.

If you or a friend have a topic, story or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at the redmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com. If you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat. We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

About This Episode

E9: How Stella got her groove back (from MFM): Stella's story

Wed, 17 Sep 2025 02:53:42 GMT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Kahlan and Taylor have a raw conversation with trainer and bodyworker, Lexi Freeman Rogers (Healing Intent Equine). Lexi share's her mare's extraordinary origin story, diagnostic journey to Myofibrillar Myopathy (MFM), and management protocols. This episode focuses more on the journey and symptoms, but for more of the science check out Episode 3: MFM is a MTHRFKR. Lexi Freeman Rogers Healing Intent Equine 404-313-9937 Rutledge, GA Dr. Valberg's Muscle Lab https://ker.com/nmdl/ Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoofcare Practitioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Equine Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook: The Red Mare Project Instagram: Wild_Hoof_Equine

— Intro: Welcoming Lexi Freeman & Stella's Story

And this is where we go silent.

This is where we go silent.

Every damn time.

I forget how words work.

Yeah.

Welcome back to another episode.

Today, we welcome Lexi Freeman, a trainer and body worker whose personal mare, Stella, was recently diagnosed with myofibular myopathy.

Lexi takes us through Stella's diagnostic journey and discusses her maintenance routine to help keep her healthy and thriving.

Welcome, Lexi and Stella.

Beauty.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

Well, that was easy.

Okay.

Yeah.

That part's getting better.

Like, we're getting better at that part.

Thank God.

I know, for real.

There's so much pause in between.

Do you know what I realized, though?

Every horse, aside from our own, our two, have been red.

Like, every guest has been red.

I know.

Oh, my God.

You're right.

They've all been red.

Hell, yeah, dude.

That's awesome.

It's so on brand.

And this has not been planned.

No.

They've all been red.

Because Stella's a Red Mare.

That's awesome.

But, yeah, that's three for three.

Three red horses.

That's awesome.

I love that.

It's so on brand.

So, I guess, do you want to do another quick rundown of what MFM is, in case some of our viewers haven't, our listeners haven't heard your original episode?

That's probably a good idea.

Okay.

Take it away, Taylor.

Yeah, for, like, a really in-depth, in-detail one.

I think that was episode three.

I think it was.

Correct.

Yep.

Yeah.

Okay.

Episode three.

MFM is a motherfucker.

I actually did not write motherfucker in the title, but I wrote it close enough.

I think I just, like, nixed some vowels.

You know, you did the Fall Out Boy thing when you took out the vowels.

My God.

Is that a Fall Out Boy thing?

Yeah.

Oh, I love Fall Out Boy.

That was...

I need to go get my converse now.

Right there, producer told them their song names were too long.

So they just...

Yeah.

Moving on.

Anyway.

Okay.

So, yeah, if you want a really in-depth explanation of myofabular myopathy, we really go into the weeds in it in the episode three, which is MFM is a motherfucker, and that was my mare story.

But yeah, MFM, it's a muscle myopathy, and pretty much what happens is in the muscle tissue, there is a clumping, if you will, of desmin.

And as the desmin starts to clump up, it stops the muscles from being able to completely relax and completely constrict or contract.

And since they are not able to fully contract and relax, they're essentially weakened.

Yeah, well, you covered it.

I mean, we have a whole episode on it, and it's really personal, so you do a really good job of exploring it.

I'm really excited to see, with Lexi and her horse, do you know her horse's name?

Stella.

Stella, yeah, you've said that a million times.

I'm excited to see what she's doing differently, because as we've learned from other guests, things present so differently.

Like we have this textbook idea, and you have real-world experience of what this mare should, quote, look like.

I'm interested to see if that holds true with her horse.

Yeah.

And I'm sure she and I are probably going to like swap parenting notes on what we do for.

We've got to.

Yeah.

Right.

But it's wild.

I mean, usually, I don't know how old this mare is, but usually the age of Ansa is like eight.

I got one in his fifth year who became symptomatic, and then there's one in his sixth year who started to become symptomatic.

Have they done the testing for it?

The six-year-old...

Hold on.

Horses.

Here we go.

Six to eight.

Yeah.

Okay.

I was right.

Yeah, yeah.

The six-year-old, they did do a muscle biopsy, and his came back abnormal, but that's kind of the tricky thing with MFM for doing a muscle biopsy is that a muscle biopsy is kind of inconclusive if they're a single-digit...

— Muscle Biopsy Limitations & Building the Supplement Protocol

Until there's an actual damage.

That was what I was going to say.

I was going to say, if they have tested for it, even if it's coming up, quote, clean, that may not be the case.

I remember you saying that when we did Leah's episode, it almost needs to be a bad day or in a state of distress when they do the biopsy, otherwise they're not going to necessarily catch it.

Yeah, it's a snapshot.

Yeah, that sucks.

Yeah, and then they do have a hair test for it.

Equiseg has a hair test, but it's- How reliable is that?

It's not.

Okay, so this is my understanding of it, is that it's valid, but it's not peer reviewed.

Okay.

So, you know- I would grain of salt.

Yeah, I mean, okay, so I did the hair test, and I think it was P2 and P4 came back, and- I remember that.

I forgot that was on hair.

Yeah, that was hair, and that kind of- I mean, I was going to do the muscle biopsy anyway, but in my mind, I was like, well, I thought I was supporting science.

If I do feel- Right, right.

But no one asked me.

No one has done anything with this information, so.

I just did it myself, but I don't know if- I don't know if Lexi did the hair test, but yeah, so the muscle biopsy can be done.

It's usually done a little bit later, and that's when you can actually see it.

But that has to be sent off to Dr.

Valberg's lab.

I don't know if any other labs actually look at the tissue.

Do you know?

You may not, but I know that you're like a rabbit-holer.

When was this first discovered?

Like, when was this first described?

Do you know?

Like, how long have we even known about this?

Yeah.

Please hold.

I love when we Google stuff.

Survey says 2017, Dr.

Valberg.

Oh, my gosh.

So this is infancy still.

Fresh, fresh.

Well, that's kind of cool.

We'll get to watch the progression of the science.

Yeah.

And I do think that the hair test and the muscle biopsy will eventually become friends.

Similar to that of the PSSM-1 hair test, like the UC Davis test.

That one's like written in scripture.

Yeah.

That's in stone.

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hanger had on it.

But I do think muscle myopathies are a lot more common than we think.

Oh, I'm sure.

This was.

I saw a staggering statistic about PSSM-1.

I think this is what it was.

And I think it was upwards of like 30% of draft horses.

Have PSSM-1.

Well, actually, the only horses I've ever personally known with it were draft or draft grosses.

Oh, no kidding.

Well, I guess.

I mean, correlation is not causation, but like it's of note.

Yeah, it's pretty on brand.

I don't know that much about it.

I've never personally owned or managed a horse with it.

PSSM-1.

Not that I knew of.

Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

I have a couple on my books.

And one of the big giveaways for any muscle myopathy, if it's not the rider who notices it, although usually some things that kind of start to kick in are like reluctance to go forward, really stiff, almost like laminitic at the start, like they almost start working like they're like their foot sore.

And really difficult to pick up the canner, hard to hold the canner.

But it's the hoof care provider who kind of starts to notice it first because bringing their foot forward on the stand.

Oh, it's probably so hard for them.

Oh, they can't.

Yeah, it's it's nuts.

So do you have to use one of those old people's fans?

The low ones.

I do have one of them and that's really helpful.

I do have one that I'm really kind of curious about what's going to happen with him.

We just got his hair test back and he came back as PSSM-1.

And then I think I see him next week.

And we're putting him on like all the things he's going on like muscle EQ, he's going on Nano E, he's going on I think E03, I believe it is.

— Stella's Supplement Stack: Muscle EQ, Nano-E & E03

Oh, I like it.

Yeah, yeah.

The Mad Barn oil.

Oh, no, the, oh, I may be saying it wrong, the KER-1.

I don't remember what theirs is called, but yeah.

Yeah.

Their Omega Blend product.

Yeah, that one.

Yeah, so he- I don't remember.

You could be right.

I could be mixing them up.

But he's going on all those things.

So I'm kind of curious to see how he does with like no Roebacks and no drugs, nothing like that, just bringing his foot forward because he couldn't, he physically could not even hold his leg up.

He was so stiff.

Oh, yeah.

So Hoof, like if you're kind of curious that your horse may have something going on, like ask how, ask your care provider.

Like, do you have trouble?

They're going to notice everything.

Yeah.

What's going on down there?

You having any trouble?

So you're doing all the work?

Yeah.

Hey.

Welcome.

Hey, you guys.

Hey.

How's it going, Lexi?

Oh, good.

How are you guys?

All right.

Good.

That's why I met you.

Likewise.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for being on the show.

Yeah, no, of course.

Thank you guys for having me.

I appreciate it.

Oh, yeah.

Totally.

So just a couple, like, not ground rules, but just to kind of give you the feel.

Yeah.

You can swear.

You can say whatever you want.

That's fantastic.

I was worried about.

No.

Oh, no.

We could never.

Lean in, girl.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks, God.

Yeah.

So say whatever you want.

If there's anything that you say that you want edited out, just let us know.

I do all the snips in.

So solid.

But yeah, you guys are better than me.

I don't know how any of this stuff works.

She's so good.

We did not know anything about anything when we started this.

And Taylor, she has done such an amazing job with the editing.

We all were like monkeys.

Like we were sitting in my backyard, begging my husband and my brother to help us understand it.

And once she's got it, she's like a pro.

It's so impressive.

That's awesome.

I'm like a fantastic surgeon.

Yeah.

I don't even understand technology.

I'm just like, I'll click on the link.

I hope this works.

I don't know.

You're good.

I also love the fact that you're in front of a hay bale.

That's- Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I don't think I have enough reception inside.

So I'm just like chilling in my hay barn right now.

Love that.

I hope you don't overheat.

Oh, no.

It's actually kind of nice in here.

It's fine.

Great.

I love that for you.

Awesome.

All right.

So Lexi, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your professional journey and how that brought you to Stella?

Where do I start?

So obviously, I wanted to be a horse trainer and a professional in the industry for as long as I can remember really.

And I was assistant trainer and for several different folks and working student positions and things like that for a long time before I kind of went out on my own.

And I swear every single horse that has come into my life has had some type of an issue one way or another.

That most people would have been like, you know what, you're just not going to make it.

Let's find something else.

And here I am.

I'm like, no, I can fix it.

Out of girl.

So much to the detriment of my mental health, but it's totally fine.

It's fine.

I do love what I do, but somewhere along the lines, I decided that bodywork really intrigued me.

Amanda Moritz is one of my mentors.

And talking with her, I was like, yeah, I was like, you know, I want to go do this.

And so I decided to go to school to become an equine massage therapist, and then that changed my entire journey with training horses and eventing.

I couldn't look at horses the same way again.

It wasn't, it's horrendous, but it's great at the same time.

And you know, obviously it was, yes, I love the sport of eventing, and I love all the different disciplines, but then it became of like, I looked at a horse as a whole being, because obviously not that I didn't look at them as a living being before, but you start to look at how all these parts are interconnected and like how you can make them better and how, you know, how you can train them better and help other people to understand them.

— Lexi's Journey: From Eventing to Holistic Bodywork

And, you know, I ended up kind of the horse that kind of changed the trajectory of my career was my big graver, Brett Oliver.

And he taught me so much.

And then I think the race track had just taken such a toll on his body that it was just kind of an off and on, off and on, like, we're lame, we're fine, we're lame, we're fine.

And we ended up having this kind of sorry, this kind of backtracks a little bit before we get to Stella.

But it kind of we had had this situation where like Oliver and I had a pretty significant rotational fall at home, just schooling.

And he fractured C6 and I shattered my collarbone.

Lexi, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yeah, no, it was probably one of the more traumatic things that's ever happened in my professional life.

And somehow he came out of it fine.

And during that three month break that we both had, I took a step back and was like, no, I need to do this right.

Like screw trying to chase some title or the levels or thinking that people weren't going to take me serious if I didn't have an FEI record.

And I kind of backed way off and went as slow as I possibly could, bringing him back.

Unfortunately, he ended up having several more injuries along the way.

And it would just have not been fair to continue to put so much pressure on him.

So after we had the fall, all this to say, someone reached out to me.

I did not know her at all.

She reached out to me through a saddle fitter.

And she sent me a handwritten card that kind of said like, hey, I know where you've been before.

Like I've been there.

Here's a check for a significant amount of money.

I want you to put this toward your education.

And I was like, whoa, I'm sorry.

What?

And she was like, please don't use this for bills.

If you can manage to not do that, use it for lessons.

And I found her on Facebook and we connected.

And she would check in on me all the time and be like, are you okay mentally?

I've crashed a horse before.

Don't listen to other people.

You know what's best for you and your horse.

And we became fast friends and she mentors young professionals because she used to be in the industry.

And when it was kind of clear, Oliver was having a bunch of other problems.

You know, this was like a year down the road.

She was like, hey, I want to help you find something else that you can get back out there on.

And I was like, I can't let you do that.

Like that's no, I can't, I can't accept that.

And she was like, there's no pressure.

Like, let me know when you're ready.

And for a long time, I was like, no, no, no.

And one day I was like, hey, I think I want to find something.

And I, you know, she would like, start, start looking.

She's like, let me help you.

And came upon this horse named Moony, who it was a, I won't get too much into that, but it was a very long saga of like, I got this wonderful horse and she, it turned out that she had equine degenerative minds.

I can't even say it honestly, EDM.

No way.

Yeah.

It was, so yeah, once again, very another traumatic, traumatic portion of my career.

Damn, sis.

But it taught me, yeah, it taught me a lot about listening to horses even more so than Oliver did.

And when we ended up having to put her down, my friend through all of this was like, I'm not going to let you stew on this.

— Losing a Horse & Finding Stella Through a Friend

We're going to find you something else.

Like, this is, like, we're doing this.

And I was like, what is my life right now?

So she set up this whole incredible trip to Ocala, and I tried a bunch of horses, and she was one that, like, I kind of sat on, it wasn't the plan for me to sit on her.

I was there to try another horse.

And she was, they were like, hey, we haven't put her on the market yet.

She's been sitting for a couple of months.

But, like, she has gone through two-star.

And I sat on her, and I was like, I feel totally comfortable on this mare.

And, you know, kind of the kicker for me whenever I try a new horse, if there's a triple set up, and I ask, hey, can I jump through the triple?

It's like a key of like, oh no, I feel comfortable on this horse.

Popped right through the triple.

She was lovely.

And there were, like, a couple of things that ticked me off that I was, like, a little bit of a concern.

You know, she lacked top line.

She was a little weird in the connection.

Like, did not want you to touch her face.

But again, I didn't know her.

But, like, she reminded me so much of Moony.

And that's kind of what started this whole thing.

I was like, this is a sign.

Like, I think this is the one.

And we vetted her and she vetted beautifully.

And I was like, this mare has been, like, has a competition record that spans from her 3-year-old year through her 11-year-old year.

And all her rads are pretty clean.

And she flexed a one on the hind left.

And I was like, done.

Yeah.

Done.

And so we said yes, shipped her up to the farm.

And then that's kind of when the whole saga started.

But that's how I met Stella.

So she was meant to be yours.

Yeah.

I think so.

I think so in a roundabout way.

But it's been a journey since then.

I know you know Taylor, because obviously you have an MFM mare.

But I'm sorry if I'm talking too much.

It's your story.

We love the podcast guests for that reason.

We just want to listen to you.

Yeah.

So basically she shipped up here and she got off the trailer and immediately just settled in.

And as someone who works with problem horses regularly, I was like, are you just already settled?

What is this?

Is this a joke?

And she was just so workman-like and so easy and fit right in.

And her and Oliver kind of became buddies.

And I was like, holy crap, this is amazing.

I was like, all of this like horrible things that have happened have like turned into something so good.

And I gave her some time to like chill.

And when I started her back under saddle here, I was like, oh, this is interesting.

I swear it's like she came here and was like, hey, I know you're going to listen to me.

So let me tell you what's wrong.

And I was like, I was like, I was like, okay, girl.

And I'm like, okay, well, we treated her for ulcers just to be on the safe side.

And like, I was like, we'll be ready to rock and roll.

We'll be competing in a couple of months.

And then it was, you know, we had some saddle fit issues where I was like, okay, she's just really sensitive about the saddle.

Like she's lacking top line.

She's out of shape.

I was like, we'll just, you know, I knew they were totally upfront with me.

They were like, truthfully, this mare's record is crap.

Like, it was super great until she probably was like nine.

And then it kind of went to crap.

Granted, she had switched riders.

She had had some time off for no reason other than that her, her original owner had a big string of horses coming up.

She actually, she's actually from Kentucky Equine Research.

Strangely enough.

Oh, yeah.

She was part of their sport horse programs.

— Stella's Athletic Pedigree & Early Sport Horse Career

And they're like, she's run on a treadmill and everything.

And so like, she competed through preliminary with, with KER.

And so then she had some time off and then a young rider was leasing her.

And that's when the problem started.

So they all assumed it was like a, a horse and rider communication issue.

And then it, you know, young rider maybe was pushing too fast, whatever.

And she just ended up with confidence issues.

She had had a crash cross-country schooling into a ditch and wall.

And so then it was just like everything tanked.

And so I knew that going in and I was like, listen, I'm cool starting back at square one.

Like I haven't competed in forever.

We'll just do it together.

And so I was like, well, let's just get her strong, sort through things.

And my vet agreed, you know, he was like, no, like, I don't think we're dealing with any major issues.

Like, let's just give her some time.

I'm like, we'd have good times and bad times.

And there was some bucking involves.

And the biggest thing was, someday she would be really forward.

And other days I could not get her to move.

Like hardly at all.

It was like pony club kicking some type of like old school horse.

Yeah.

And I was like, this mare is an athlete.

What's happening?

Like, is it a saddle issue?

Yeah.

And I'm like, does she just not like me?

All those thoughts start going through your head of like, yeah, why can't I figure this out?

And she could not pick up the right league canner.

Like it would take me typically five tries to get her to pick up the right league canner.

And but no real lameness issues.

And, you know, obviously like I'm a body worker.

So like I addressed all of that.

She hates chiropractic.

Like we'll try to kill my poor chiropractor, but loves acupuncture.

Really?

Interesting.

Yes.

Very.

Yeah.

Figured that out pretty quick.

She told you.

But, oh, she told us.

All right.

But we were kind of figuring each other out a little bit.

Had some incidences here and there, but nothing crazy.

And I was like, okay, like we're getting somewhere.

And we decided to do the Area 3 Eventing Camp.

This was, I think it was last summer.

So a little over a year ago now.

And I did most of the week with Sarah Cozumflick, who is absolutely incredible.

Helped me kind of figure Stella out a little bit.

And she loved the mare.

And it's a four-day camp.

And like MFM horses, they're like a two to three-day on, one to two-day off type of deal.

Well, this was a four-day camp.

She hauled down, day one was a hack, then three days of going twice a day.

So by day four, she was super stuck in her body for a dressage lesson that morning.

And I was like, I think she's just really tired.

I'll see how she feels for the afternoon ride.

And when I pulled her out that afternoon to go for a handwalk, she just kind of like literally plants at her feet, not like being obstinate, but just plants at her feet.

And she like fell asleep standing there and just zoned out.

And I was like, and I was like, no kiddo, like you're done for the week, like we're not, I'm not gonna make you do anything.

Like we'll go home.

You've been, you've been a champ.

And I get her back home, gave her a few days off.

And then I couldn't get her to move under saddle.

It got worse.

And then the spookiness started.

Then she went off of her food.

And I'm all kind of all around, I was like, are we dealing with ulcers?

Because like she was on Ulcer Guard the whole time we were gone, but maybe she just got super stressed, scoped her, she was pretty riddled.

And it took us like four solid months to get rid of these ulcers.

They wouldn't go away.

Oh my God.

And I was like, I'm beating my head against the wall.

— Hitting a Wall: Unexplained Resistance Under Saddle

And I'm like, what is happening?

And during that time, I was like, I'm going to take you out of regular work.

We'll just, we'll hack for a couple of months, like low stress, easy.

And I'm hacking one day, like we have like 180 acre farm.

And so like we're out in the cow pasture and she's like kind of stuck in her body.

And I'm just chucking in the reins and I'm like, you know, walk on, like we're just, it's a chill day.

And like zero to a hundred, all of a sudden she is bolting out of nowhere for no reason.

And then bucks and I'm like, it's okay, I got this.

And as I'm like, I got this, she drops the shoulder and spins.

Oh, and I'm like flat on my back on red clay.

Oh, and I was like, I legitimately thought I broke my back for a second.

And I was like, what, what the hell?

And I remember I let go of her and I heard her scream and I heard her gallop off.

And I was like, what the fuck was that?

So I sit up and I'm like, okay, I think I'm fine.

And I stand up and she's gone.

Oh my God.

Like nowhere to be found.

And I was like, okay, surely she just galloped back to the barn, like you're inside of the barn.

Sure.

So I call my husband and I'm like, I need you, like where is Stella?

Like she's probably run back to the barn.

Like, you know, we had an issue and he's like, she's not here.

I'm like, what do you mean she didn't run back to the barn?

Like that's like a normal horse thing.

You run back home like you run.

Right.

No, now she's nowhere.

So I'm like sprinting through the cow pasture trying to find her.

She's nowhere on the property.

She ran through an entire fence line of our neighbor's pasture.

Oh my God.

And is standing in the middle of his 20 acre field.

Not grazing, not moving, just standing.

Oh my God.

And then my husband walks up to her and she was like, oh my God, hi dad.

I'm so sorry.

She walks excited. 100% dissociated.

And I was like, okay.

I was like, we're just not going to ride you until the ulcers clear up.

So we waited.

Get the ulcers cleared up and I'm like, okay, I think I have my horse back.

Like we're feeling better.

And then the big kicker was kind of like, peed me off that something really not right is she somehow, I still have no idea what really happened, but she somehow, I don't know if she got tangled in her turnout sheet one night.

I do night turnouts and this was like last fall, I think.

Well, the next morning, I get a call from a share a barn with another trainer and she was like, hey, all of the horses are going like that shit.

And I was like, what do you mean they're going that shit?

Like it's 6 a.m.

So I like run out in my pajamas and the couple of horses inside were screaming bloody murder.

All the horses outside are running.

And Oliver's in his pasture who's like, who's next to Stella and he's like, yo, I don't know what's going on.

And I'm like, okay, there's Oliver, like where's Stella?

And I see her, she wadded up in the middle of the pasture and she's gone.

Oh, she's gone.

Boom.

So she had, yeah, so she run through, it's still dark at this point, she had run through an electric gate, she jumped out of her pasture, jumped into another pasture, ran through the fence out of that one.

And then we lose track of her from there.

Oh, and so it's about an hour and a half of us looking for her all over this 180 acre property.

Meanwhile, there's like 20 something other horses on property that she doesn't stay with.

There's an entire band of brood mares next door that she also doesn't go to.

So I have like five or six people searching for her.

Can't find her.

We've retraced our steps multiple times.

I'm like putting out lost and founds and I'm like, Oh, this is a nightmare.

— The Search for Answers: Lost Posts & Growing Desperation

Oh, my God.

Oh, I was losing it.

So about an hour and a half goes by.

I've driven past the same area in the back of our cow pasture, the furthest away from any horse that you can get.

I've driven past here two to three separate times.

My husband called me and goes, she's in the wood line shaking.

Oh, girlies.

I mean, she had run through a barbed wire.

Well, I think she tried to jump the barbed wire fence, missed, went through it.

She's cut to shreds and she's just standing in the wood line for probably an hour shaking while everyone's looking for her.

I was like, this is not normal.

What do I do?

That's not normal horse behavior, but everyone was like, oh, it was a freak accident.

Like, freak things happened.

She just panicked.

And part of what happened, I found out, which, you know, words to the wise, I don't know if you know what I'm talking about when I say, like, you know, the electric fence gates that are like metal coils?

I don't know that like they stretch across.

Yeah.

I'll never use those again, because those got stuck in her tail and were chasing her.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

So I won't use those.

So that's kind of why she was running like blindly to begin with.

But we found those on the back of a horse trailer behind the barn.

So she ran by, those got pulled off of her and then she still continued running.

And that's when she ran through the fence and took off to the back 40.

So both my vets were kind of like, maybe it's just her, it was an off thing.

Who knows?

And I was like, okay, so I'm just kind of trying to piece things together.

And she heals from everything and we're back to work.

And at first she came back beautifully.

And then things started going down hill again, spooking, bucking, like going blind, almost having like little mini tie up episodes where she would just shake for really no reason.

And so during that time, I was also working with two client horses who were suspected of having neuromuscular issues.

And I knew what MFM was because I had originally suspected it with my Mooney horse, and it turned out it was not MFM, it was EDM.

And I kept seeing little signs in these other horses where I was like, this is a lot like Stella, like in a lot of different ways.

And so I went to my vet.

I remember calling him one day, she had an absolute meltdown about seeing another horse.

That was it.

She just saw a horse, had a meltdown.

And I called him and I was like, something's really, really wrong.

Like I want to do a muscle biopsy.

And he was like, listen, I don't think these two things are related.

Like I think she just had a moment, maybe she's in heat.

And I was like, no, we're doing a biopsy.

And you know, God bless my friend, you know, who helped me find her, who technically co-owns her with me.

I was like, please don't think I'm crazy.

Like, and she was like, we're far past that.

She was like, if you think this is something we need to do, you tell me like, we'll do it.

And I was like, I do.

And of course I'm terrified that I'm going to be wrong.

And we do the biopsy and my vet texts me one week, it came in like on a Friday.

He texts me on a Saturday morning.

He goes, holy fucking shit, you were right.

It's MFM.

And I was like, I was like, are you shitting me?

And it wasn't like a mild case.

Like it was like, it was legitimate.

What was her rating?

What was, was it like very, like?

So, I don't know if they gave like a rating necessarily.

I can't remember.

I'd have to go back and look at the report, but like it was very clear of like there were Desmond aggregates in that biopsy.

You could actually see it on the picture.

— Confirming the Diagnosis: Seeing It in the Radiographs

So, I was like, okay, this isn't like a false positive or anything.

This is for real.

Yeah.

And what really I thought was interesting is Dr.

Valberg actually on there was like, hey, I'm really interested in this case.

If someone could please update me on how this mare does.

And I was like, oh, this is serious.

Like, this is, this is something.

And so like, of course, like, you know, you know, the biopsy reports, they give you like all these, all, you know, the steps of like, you know, this is the diet change, you know, here's a nutritionist you can contact.

And, you know, here's an exercise program.

And like, it starts with like lunging, LOL.

The mare does it lunge.

We don't lunge.

We don't do circles.

We, no, we don't know.

No, no, like we come unglued and act like a wild animal is attacking us when we lunge.

Um, do you, so when you posted that video, not to cut you off, but when you posted that video of Stella lunging, I have never felt more seen because I thought I just never taught her how to lunge.

And, but she does the same thing.

It's like, she's good.

She'll just literally just like a lesson point jog and then gone.

That I don't know.

Yeah.

And for a while I thought I was crazy.

And I was like, am I, do I just suck it lunging this horse?

What is happening?

And I'm like, I swear to God, I know what I'm doing, but I couldn't figure it out.

And, and forget long lining.

Like I tried long lining again, like last week.

And I was like, never again.

Forget this.

No.

But you know, of course, like I get these biopsy results and I get the report and I'm like, okay, we figured it out.

They say like four to six weeks with a diet change and you'll start to see results.

And I was like, ha, we figured it out.

I'm going to get my horse back.

That was like so far from the truth.

Oh, no.

No, no, no.

It's like it's it's fine.

But like it was probably four months until I really was like, oh, I think this is going to be okay.

Like I think I'm getting my horse back.

And it was very it was very emotional because there were several times like, I'm pretty stubborn, but like, I'll be honest, there were multiple times where I'm like sobbing because I'm like, I am actually scared of my horse because like she can go from zero to a hundred.

Yeah.

And like, as a professional, especially being scared of your own horse is like kind of kind of kills your confidence a little bit.

Yeah.

But like, I've never gotten, I think I've never gotten bucked off of a horse as much as I have her.

Well, she never doesn't maliciously.

Of course, it's never, she just goes blind.

And it was one of those things of I kept telling my husband, I was like, I don't know if I can do this.

Like I legitimately don't know if I can do this.

And God bless, you know, my friend, she was like, if you get to a point where this is too much, she can come stay with me.

She's a brilliant horse woman.

She's like, she can come stay with me.

I'll figure things out.

You take a mental break, do what you need to do.

And I was like, no, I'm going to do this.

Screw that.

I was like, ah.

And so I remember one day I was so frustrated and I'm like in tears saying I can't do this.

And my husband was like, you can and you're going to, like period the end.

He's like, he has such a good feel for the horses.

And he was like, this mare's not done.

Like she's going to be fine.

But like you just basically he looked at me and he was like, whether you realize it or not, he's like, you are putting so much expectation on this mare of like, I have to get her better because we're going to go show.

Like I have to prove everybody that I proved to everybody that I don't suck, that I do know what I'm doing.

— Imposter Syndrome & Proving Herself as a Professional

And he was like, she feels all of that.

And I was like, no, I'm not doing all the right things.

And he was like, okay, no, you're not.

And I was like, oh, like so mad at him.

And then of course, I realize I'm like, as usual, like I hate to admit this publicly, like he's right.

On the record, you know.

And I was like, oh.

And so I kind of looked at her one day and I was like, all right, girl, like I'm going to put on my air vest and we're going to go hack for a month.

Like we're just going to go for a walk, whether it's for 15 minutes before you say I'm done.

Because she would just, you go for a walk and she would just plant her feet and be like, I can't go any further.

And I would try to push her through it.

And so I was like, zero expectations for the next six weeks, like here's what we do.

And so we would walk.

And if she would get to a point where she said I can't go anymore, I'd go, can you just try for five more minutes?

Like what if we just try?

And it got to the point where she was like, okay, as long as you're not going to push me more than that, like I'll try for you.

And a few weeks of that went by and she'd be like, okay, like you can ask me for a little bit more.

Like I trust that you're not going to ask me to canner today or to ask me to do something that scares me.

And so then one day I was like, what if we tried the trot?

And she picked up the trot and trotted very forward, you know, for even just 100 yards.

And then we walked and she was like, oh, like there's no agenda here.

And I remember like giggling.

And I was like, this is fun?

Like, am I having fun riding?

Like, what the hell is this?

And I remember one day my husband, like before, you know, before my husband was kind of like, you've got to stop putting so much pressure on yourself and her.

He had asked me, he was like, do you love this mare?

And I was like, I do, like I love all of them, but like, I don't have a connection with her.

Like I'm just so frustrated all the time.

And I was like, I hate to say that, but like I would jump off a cliff for all of her, but like I don't, it's not that I don't love her, but like I didn't feel that same way.

And we hit about the four or five month mark.

And after doing this, like, you know, six weeks of just hacking and no pressure.

And I remember, I can't remember what exactly happened, but I got so protective over her.

Someone said something and I was like, back off.

That's my mare.

Like, don't say that about her.

I was like, oh yeah.

And I was like, whoa.

And I remember I looked at my husband and I said, I would jump off a cliff for this horse.

Like she has tried so hard for me for the last couple of months.

Like I'm so, I'm going to get like all emotional.

I was like, I was like, I'm just like so fucking proud of her, like for what she's done.

And then, you know, it's just like things started clicking.

And, you know, we did put her on Muscle Relaxers.

And I think she kind of was like, okay, you're doing these things to help me.

And, you know, and I would listen to her if she said, hey, I, you know, I need a diet change.

I wouldn't question and be like, suck it up.

You got to eat what you eat.

What I give you.

I'd be like, okay, what can we do different?

Or if it's, you know, 60 degrees and most horses would be comfortable, she's chilly.

I didn't just say, suck it up, buttercup.

I was like, hey, do you want to back on track sheet?

And you could just kind of see her where she was like, are you listening to me?

And I was like, girl, I got you.

Here's your sweater.

Yeah.

And I was like, girl, I would jump off a cliff for you.

— Building Trust with Stella Despite Setbacks

And granted, we still have ups and downs.

I got bucked off two days ago.

But like, but in a roundabout way, I didn't listen to her about something.

And I was like, sorry, you know?

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm sorry.

But it's just like, it has been such a crazy process of challenging myself to drop all expectations and to not plan.

Like I'm a planner.

Yeah.

There is no planning.

There cannot be an agenda with this mare.

Like, and it challenged me in a way that I haven't been challenged before.

And it pushed me through a lot of trauma with my previous mare, because there were times when bits of Mooney would come out of Stella, and I would just sit in the corner and cry because it scared me that we were going down that road.

And now that we're, I think we are seven, maybe eight months out from the diagnosis now.

And I jumped her for the first time.

You did?

I did.

Hell yeah.

And she, there was no like, normally it would almost feel like there was a parachute behind her, like coming up to a jump where, not that she wanted to stop, but it's like her body was just disconnected.

And then she would just almost, she would break to the trot or come to a walk.

And you were like, well, how do I ride this?

And this time she was dragging me to shit.

And I was like, okay.

And I was like, what is this?

Like, and it was fun.

And I had to tell myself, like, no matter what happens, like regardless, maybe we get back to, you know, maybe we get back to prelim one day.

Maybe we don't.

But whatever happens, like, I'm almost, I'm almost a little bit at peace with it because like, holy crap, like I have a mare that trusts me.

That's a big deal.

That's a big, that's a big deal.

And so it's just been, it's been one hell of a journey, to be honest.

And like I said, I am still very much learning what makes Stella tick and what's going to piss her off.

And I have to regularly apologize to her.

But then we also have conversations of like, yo, okay, what I did, clearly you didn't love, doesn't mean you get to act the way you just acted.

Like, you know, I'm going to listen to you.

You don't, you don't get to blow up at me.

Yeah, you don't have to yell.

Like we've talked about this, but for the most part, she's at a point where instead of just, you know, when something bothers her, instead of her going to immediately to scream and run, it's, hey, mother, you're wrong.

Yeah, like rethink your actions, or like I will run and yell.

Or die.

Pretty much.

So yeah.

Love that.

And a chestnut thoroughbred mare to boot.

So no, she's pretty freaking cool.

The fact that, you know, she wasn't listened to for so many years.

And again, it's no one's fault because like this shit's hard to diagnose and it's still kind of new.

And before, just recently, everyone was like, MFM is not, it's not present in thoroughbreds.

It's not.

What?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

The number of people that will say it doesn't occur in thoroughbreds, it's only in warm bloods and Arabian horses, for the most part.

And so, but I'm like, hey, guess what?

Here's one.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And yeah, so yeah, it's been a, it was interesting and thankfully, like her connections in the past, like I'm in contact with her breeder and her first owner.

And they were all like, holy crap, like thank you for figuring this out for her.

Like that's incredible.

And they were all so supportive and kind about it.

And like that doesn't happen very often in the horse world.

So, I got pretty stupid lucky with that.

But yeah, long story short, not really.

That's kind of the journey with Stella thus far anyway.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Dude, my heart goes out to you.

Like with the explosive behavior.

— Explosive Behavior & Parallels to Leah's Story

Like, I like...

It sounded like you were talking about Leah.

It's well, because I feel like with MFM, they don't talk about explosive behaviors.

Like, it's just mentioned.

No.

But there's not, like, a discussion of, hey, you could die.

There's...

Yes, it's not ever.

Like, they basically...

They say it's like, oh, the horse is super stiff and sore and doesn't want to go forward, which, yes, I have 100% experience with Stella, but nobody talks about the fact that, like, the horse goes from zero, it's not even zero to 60, it's zero to 100.

Well, and like...

Oh, go ahead.

It's not a typical, like, spook.

It's a panic attack.

It's like, oh, full blown panic dissociating.

They don't care if you live, they don't care if they live.

They're running in terror.

Like, when you said that she saw a horse and it freaked her out, like, that's Leah.

Like, we have that.

Like, if you go back and listen to the other episode, literally, the parallels as someone with, thank God, without an MFM horse, it's like, yeah, those are really specific, specific behaviors that like, yeah, that should be part of the description of the entire state because that's the part that like, people are going to have to deal with and they could get seriously hurt.

Yeah.

No, for sure, I have a friend of mine too that was also, I don't actually don't know, like I obviously was working with a couple of other neuromuscular horses during that kind of time period where I was like suspecting.

But I have a friend whose horse got diagnosed with PSSM too but she's super young and she suspected MFM, it just didn't show up yet.

And I would be chatting with her over messenger and what she was describing to me, like the explosiveness and the anxiety and some of those things.

I was like, there is no way that my horse doesn't have this.

And so if it weren't for her, so like shout out to Anna Sasser for kind of pushing me a little bit to be like, just do the biopsy.

Don't do a diet trial because you'll never actually know.

You need to know for sure.

Just do the biopsy.

Oh my God, if there's one diagnostic thing that I've ever done that I am so glad that I decided to do is that.

Yeah.

Because it was such a definite, yes, here is your issue.

Yes, there might be other issues compounding, but this is your primary migraine problem, that you've got to figure this out.

As long as I keep that in mind, things kind of slowly keep progressing forward, even if we take a step back here and there.

Yeah.

We still keep moving forward, and that's all I can ask for.

Yeah.

Well, I love her.

Yeah.

She sounds so cool.

She is.

So, and when you said that, like, we're talking about, we have the same horse, by the way, but we have the same horse.

That's intriguing.

It's so wild.

We have the same horse, because even, like, when you said, if it's in the 60s and she needs her back on track, like, if it's under 70, like, mine at least has a T-shirt on.

Like, she's got to have something.

Yeah.

And if it's cold rain, forget it.

Can't do it.

Oh, forget it.

Absolutely forget it.

Like, I made the mistake about, I think it was, we had a couple, like, random cold days in August that, like, I wasn't really expecting, where it got down to, like, in the, like, high 50s, low 60s is low.

Yeah.

I didn't think about it, because it was, like, 80 degrees when I turned her out, or maybe something, and so, and she goes out in a flysheet, because Lord knows we can't handle bugs.

Absolutely not.

But I remember I brought her in, and, like, her, she could not extend her right shoulder.

And I, I was like, oh, God, like, what is happening?

And it dawned on me about a week later that she had gotten cold, and it, her right scapula was plastered to her body.

— The Frozen Scapula: A Major Bodywork Discovery

And it took me doing so much fascial work and lasering to get that undone.

So I will never make that mistake again.

I don't know what kind of cat.

There's a cat fight going on above my head, so I'm not really sure what's happening right now.

Our barn cats are having a situation.

I don't know.

It's chaos around here.

That is great.

Then another thing that I have realized is, you can't change too much.

You have to have a discussion about any changes.

Any diet changes has to be a discussion with Stella's.

Any tack changes, there better be a discussion.

I will admit it, I screwed that up about two weeks ago.

I didn't think she loved her current dressage saddle, so we found a new one that I thought she liked.

I mistook how she was going.

I really thought it was like she had some suspension because she was able to lift her back.

In reality, she was compensating, so I continued riding her in it.

I was trying to figure out, okay, is this saddle making you a little bit uncomfortable because you're able to use yourself in a better way, or is it actually not working for you?

And she made it very loud and clear on ride three after I was like, no, no, you're fine.

Just trot forward.

And I could feel her suck back and I was like, I've made a grave error.

And then all of a sudden, I am on the ground and I was like, oh no, no.

I was like, shit.

She says, I don't like it.

She did.

She fricking told me and I was like, motherfucker, you did not have to buck me off again.

Like what the hell?

And this time, she only ran about 100 yards and then she stopped and she looked at me.

And I'm like sprinting towards her and I was like, please don't run away, friend.

Please don't.

I can't do this right now.

And she kind of looked at me and was like, ooh, so sorry I did that to you, but like, this is not going to cut it.

And I was like, I don't like this one, mother.

So I know some people are weird about it, but I have an animal communicator that I've been using for years.

Yeah, great.

She's always spot on.

And so I was a little bit like, okay, second guessing myself on the saddle thing.

So I had an appointment with a niece the other day, and I was like, hey, what's the deal with the saddle, like the Strasoc saddle?

Like, is it like a complete no go?

Does it just need to be tweaked?

And apparently Stella goes, I can't lift my fucking back, and it's pinching my shoulders, I can't handle it.

And I was like, okay, friend, I was like, Anees, can you, yeah, I was like, sorry, Anees, can you just, can you let her know that I will send it back to where it came from?

And Stella just goes, thank fucking God.

I am obsessed with this mare.

I love her.

And I was like, okay.

Oh, she's a queen.

And so I asked Anees, I said, we tried some other ones that day.

I said, can you ask her if she remembers if she liked any of the others?

And she said, it wasn't the one before this one, but it was before, it was like two before.

And I was like, there was only one before this particular saddle.

And Stella was adamant that there was one before that.

And I was like, I was like, wait, I did the only other dressage, I was like, is it the one that I, like her saddle, the one that we normally would ride in?

And she goes, yeah, that one.

And I was like, I didn't think she liked that one.

Like I thought, I honestly thought it was like bothering her shoulders.

And she goes, no, I like that one.

I don't know why you would think that.

Oh.

And I was like, okay.

And so the next ride, I looked at her and I said, hey, I said, you told Denise that you, you like your normal saddle.

— Saddle Fit Breakthrough & Stella's Reaction

I said, we're gonna put this on and try it today.

My God, if she wasn't the happiest little clam caught in cannering around.

And I was like, I was like, okay, friends, you win.

Like, we get it.

I was like, we get it.

I'm sorry, my bad.

And I also asked Anees, you guys might find this funny.

So like, I don't, you might have seen my post, Taylor, about her, her donkey in the cow pasture.

That is like her little like, it just gets her jazzed up and makes her happy before work.

So like, so there's this feral stud donkey that lives out with the cows.

And for some reason, she's obsessed with it.

And so I asked Anees, I said, listen, I said, this is a weird question.

I said, but can you just, I mentioned nothing about what the situation was.

I said, can you ask her what the obsession with the donkey is?

And Anees goes, oh my God, she thinks it's so funny.

Like she thinks it's this precious little feral creature that she can chase and she loves to make it do goofy stuff.

She said it just makes her little heart happy.

And I was like, okay, are you kidding me?

And so she said, oh yeah, it just makes her happy to just like be harassed with this little creature.

To harass it, because that's what she does.

It runs away screaming and she sits there and just like flicks her head at it.

Like this is the best.

And I said, does she want to keep doing that?

And he said, oh, absolutely.

And I said, okay, we'll do that.

No change, no change.

So what did we do before this podcast today?

We went out and we saw her donkey and she was happy as a clam.

Is she harassed the donkey?

That's incredible.

I don't know.

I feel like I'm encouraging bad behavior, but it makes her happy, so I don't care.

I mean, it's fine.

It's fine.

She's having fun.

He's fine.

Yeah, it's fine.

The donkey is fine.

Honestly, he's a menace to society, so he needs somebody to be a menace back.

That's okay.

It's balanced.

Yeah.

That's what I always say.

It's a healthy balance of some sort.

So what was the saddle that she did like the original?

What was that?

My Stuban.

She loves a Stuban.

Okay.

Really?

Okay.

Yep.

She has a custom Stuban jump saddle.

That is the only jump saddle that she actually loves.

And it's Oliver's dressage saddle, and she's happy in it.

So I'm not going to change a damn thing until she tells me otherwise.

But the queen gets what the queen wants.

She has not murdered me yet, so I will oblige.

Yeah, that's her brain, and she's a stupid girl.

That's okay.

And I'm like, I love stupid too, so we'll go with it.

Right.

You know?

Yeah, I won't try to change it.

Oh my God.

So, okay, so we got her tach.

We got all that sorted.

I'm curious what her workout routine is.

What is y'all's schedule?

What works for her?

So I'm still kind of tweaking it a little bit.

So schedule wise, she seems to be a two day on, one day off kind of girl, which what they typically say is three day on, one day off, or sorry, three day on, two days off.

She can handle two days off, but she's happiest with one.

If I give her two days off, we're to the point where she will not be explosive when I bring her back, but she'll be a little bit more subdued and a little bit more stiff.

So right now we'll do kind of like either like a flat day or a jump school, and then we'll do a hack day.

We might do some trotting on our hack day like some trot sets, or we might just go for a long hack.

Then we'll have a day off, then we'll do a flat, then a hack, then a day off.

And then occasionally we'll do like two harder days in a row, followed by a hack day, and then I might give her two days off after that.

And so it kind of fluctuates, but I never ever ever work her more than three days in a row.

— Work Schedule: Never More Than Three Days in a Row

Yeah.

If that happens, like most of the time, she'll plant her feet and be like, you put me back in the stall, like we're not doing this today.

And it's one of those things where you can kind of feel her when she's at the point where like, there is no negotiating.

And so I'm like, you know what, you're right, back to your house.

But then there are still some times where she'll balk a little bit when I get on her and I'm like, hey, you're fine.

Remember, I'm not gonna ask you to do something that you can't do.

So like, bear with me.

And she'll usually be like, okay, that's fair.

And she'll work with me.

Like, we'll meet in the middle somewhere.

But that's kind of that's kind of our current schedule.

When I just play it by ear on how she feels on each day, like what we're going to do the next day.

But she does enjoy her nice, like, easy hack days in between.

I think it just gives her body and brain a little bit of a reset.

But she still keeps moving.

But yeah, that's kind of where we're at currently.

Yeah, I think they're all, it's so interesting to hear, like, all the different schedules.

Because, like, if I need, like, a schooling day, I give her three days off.

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Interesting.

I have another MFM mare on my books who she can't take any days off.

She has to do something early.

Yeah.

So, it's kind of, like, they're all so unique to them.

Yeah.

But I can't ask the same thing each day.

So, like, if we do, like, a training ride, then the next day, I can't, like, we're just gonna walk on the trails.

Yeah.

No questions.

That is something.

So, that was actually something that I learned from the MFM Forum group.

I was having such a hard time with Stella.

Like, she just seemed like she hated working.

And it was a, and I felt so bad asking her to do these things, even though she needed to move, she needed to work, but I was like, I feel horrible because she seems like she hates it.

And they were like, well, what are you doing?

And I was like, well, walktrock hanner, maybe some poles, but like, kind of the same thing as it takes her so long to warm up.

We don't really get to do anything advanced necessarily.

And they were like, you need to vary your work schedule.

Like, she's not going to be able to handle doing the same thing.

Like, her body can't.

And I was like, of course it can't.

Like, why did I not think of that?

And since I added in those hack days, it has been a complete game changer.

And then also trying to figure out what therapies do work for her.

Like, the Beamer, she's one of those, it could be hit or miss, sometimes it works really well for her, sometimes not.

She loves the laser.

But one thing that I really did not think would help her that she loves is the theraplate.

Really?

She hated it at first and now she wants you to crank that thing all the way up.

And it just helps, I think it just helps her body just relax and her to get into like a happy neutral.

Yeah.

So that was something I've just found out in the last maybe six weeks.

So we started incorporating that.

Wow.

And you said she hates chiropractic?

Hates chiropractic.

But acupuncture, which she hates needles.

So you would think she hates acupuncture, but she'll melt.

She falls asleep.

Love acupuncture.

Can she do MagnaWave?

The big pemphichines with the tubes, can she handle that?

So I've never tried it with her because I honestly think she probably couldn't handle it.

But I might be wrong to be honest.

Because she does surprise me on a lot of things, really.

Yeah, she can't tolerate it.

I've been too scared to try it because I do have a love-hate relationship with MagnaWave.

— MagnaWave: A Love-Hate Relationship

And people ask me as a body worker, they're like, Oh, should I have someone come and do MagnaWave?

And I'm like, I do like it depending on the practitioner.

If the practitioner is a body worker, I'm more OK with it because I feel like they know how to use it properly.

Or something along those lines, whereas if someone just bought a MagnaWave and went through the MagnaWave training and then they come out and pulse your horse.

So it makes me a little nervous to recommend it to people sometimes, but that's also just a personal preference of mine.

And so that's kind of why I haven't actually tried it with Stella.

But the Beamer she seems to tolerate, which is still PMF.

Yeah.

It's just a little, I mean, the Beamer is softer.

Mine does really good with it.

I can, I mean, I can cook.

Yeah.

She wears it the whole time I show her.

Yeah, I just cook her.

That's awesome.

She does really good with that.

But I put the big ones on her a couple of times, and she just, too much sauce.

It's strong.

Yeah.

And so, you know, you being, you know, being a trimmer, something that Stella struggles with, and I'll pick your brain on this, she has been struggling with getting shod.

And she's gotten better with the front ends, but she'll do the whole thing where she pulls back, pulls back.

And thankfully, my fair now is very understanding, and I'm like, I promise she is not doing this to be naughty or malicious.

I was like, she just can't balance.

Like, she can't stay comfortable.

And so, I've been trying to, you know, she's on muscle relaxers, and that's not quite enough during fair or stuff.

So, like, what do you do for your mare?

So, that's so wild that you mentioned that.

Well, actually, it's not crazy.

We were just chatting about that.

Like, Hoof Care, we're the ones who notice it.

Yeah.

Like, if the rider doesn't notice it or the trainer, and if it's just little things, like, a lot of times, bringing their foot forward on the stand is a train wreck.

So, like, for mine, coming forward can be really hard for her.

Yep.

Her hinds, it's really hard for her to hold up her hind feet.

And she has the quick slam down.

But I've noticed if I kind of let her cook in the beamer for a little bit and put the leg cuffs over her neck, that seems to help.

Then, maybe, honestly, that is something I haven't done.

Like, I've tried fair plating and I've tried riding her before the fair, so she's nice and warm, and that's helped some.

But I'm wondering maybe letting her cook with the beamer.

That's a really good idea.

Yeah.

And I put the little leg cuffs over her neck, because I'm not sure if it's a stabilizing thing, because I think her hinds, does she do a quick slam down on her feet?

Yes.

It's violent.

Yeah, it's a bit violent, and you better have your feet out of the way.

Yeah.

Those are really rough.

I mean, that's what mine does too, and I always attribute it to that.

It did get better when I put her MFM pellet after you and I spoke about that.

Yeah.

That helped big time.

But I just let her cook, and I just have to just bribe her.

If she says she can't do it, I just have to let her readjust.

Yeah, it's a struggle.

I think it's important.

Obviously, you doing your own mare, you understand, and I think it is important for anybody else out there that might have a horse that struggles, is to find a barrier that is understanding of that and is willing to adjust the way they shoe or adjust the way they hold their limbs to accommodate.

Because I don't know about your mare, but like Stella is one of like, if you get after her, if she's not being malicious and she's just genuinely struggling with something and you get after her, she's going to shut down and she will not be the same horse for several days afterwards.

— Reading Stella's Limits: Malicious vs. Genuinely Struggling

She does not tolerate that at all.

Oh, she holds on to it.

Yeah.

She's also very weird about people palpating her back.

If Josh or my husband or I do it, because I think we're her safe people, she's fine with it.

If a vet or a farrier palpates her back, you can forget it.

That's a stress thing.

She doesn't know that they're not going to cause her pain and listen to her.

You have to earn everything with her.

Oh, you're 100 percent right.

I had a farrier just rub her back, and I saw the look on her face.

She came at me with teeth, and I said, hey, please, please don't do that.

She does not like that.

He got offended and I was like, I'm not trying to offend you.

I said, that is just, she has stranger danger when it comes to her back.

I said, just don't touch her.

I said, no, you can flirt with her.

She likes to be flirted with.

Men can flirt with her.

It's why she loves my husband because of the flirt.

I think it's important, like I said, to understand, even if it seems silly, to understand what makes them uncomfortable and what makes them tick.

And it's just like a human, it's a human with a physical disability or a mental issue of like, if you know something bothers them, you go out of your way, cannot do the thing.

It's not hard.

Yeah, don't tell them, oh, just get over it.

Well, that's how we see it.

And we treat animals like there's something to be controlled and convinced, you know, they just for us.

But yeah, it's crazy that we treat horses that way because they could fit into us.

They're ginormous.

Yes.

And honestly, the fact that more people don't get killed by horses with the way that we treat them sometimes, it blows my mind.

Like, they're so kind, they're such kind creatures.

And, you know, I'm glad Stella ended up with me because, like, I do worry if she had ended up with someone who didn't understand her, that things could have gone bad really quickly.

If somebody would be dead and she probably wouldn't have meant to kill them.

But, bad things would have happened because, like I said, she could be volatile before we did the diet changes and everything.

She was just, I don't think she felt safe in her body.

And I think that's a big thing to understand with these horses of, like, they act out not because they're bad, but because they feel unsafe and uncomfortable in their body.

Just like humans act out if they feel uncomfortable and safe.

And, you know, people will say, oh, don't anthropomorphize horses, but I'm sorry, I'm going to.

They can feel unsafe in their body, yeah.

It's not hard, like, you know, you've seen those people, well, they'll put, like, there's a short video of a girl, like, brushing a flower over a horse's skin.

Yeah.

With the quotes of, like, oh, they can't feel it.

They're, you know, you can hit them with a whip, they can't feel it.

I'm sorry, these motherfuckers are sensitive as hell.

Oh, yeah.

Are you kidding me?

Like, oh, they're so incredibly sensitive, mentally and physically.

Like, how can we expect anything different of them?

Like, yeah, and they should survive in the wild.

If they weren't aware of themselves, we wouldn't have horses because they wouldn't have survived this long as a species.

Exactly.

I want my horses to be aware.

Like, I want them to be a bit sensitive.

And I'm, you know, I'm not in the business of, you know, I'm not in the business of necessarily coddling horses, but I'm also not in the business of making them shut down to their surroundings.

Yeah.

You know, I want a well-adjusted horse, but like, they're gonna spook.

— Well-Adjusted Doesn't Mean Perfect: Normal Horse Behavior

They're gonna get upset about things.

Well, the big thing is, sorry, the big thing is, is then, you know, if they do get upset about something, they can know that like, hey, you're in a safe space.

So like, we can take that, that to the word down to a five.

Yeah, use your words, communicate.

And I think so many trainers and just horsemen in general, these days, they don't take that into consideration.

It's like, you will obey, you will behave, you will be good.

The thing is, with most horses, flooding works.

So they think they're doing something.

Damn, that's heavy.

Holy shit, that's heavy.

That's huge.

I love that you just said that.

Flooding works with most of these horses.

So, you know, that's how you do it.

And it works so frequently that when you have a sensitive Red Mare who needs the extra support and communication, you can blame it on her.

Yes, because she's a Red Mare.

Yeah, it's her fault.

We did everything right.

All the other horses tolerated this just fine.

And she did her fault.

Like, it's only, it's like such a reinforcing way, like self-reinforcing way to handle animals.

Because you do get the results.

And they're like, oh, you know, that horse is fine.

Like he's standing quiet.

He's gone.

It's learned helplessness.

It's gone.

Like, gone.

Learned helplessness.

It is something I see in so many horses that come to my program is learned helplessness, where they're just shut down.

And the second they realize they can be listened to, they start to open up.

And sometimes it comes out as misbehaving.

And a lot of times owners will be like, I don't understand.

They've never been like this.

And I'm like, give it, give it time.

Like we're going to listen this time.

Like they know we're going to listen.

So like, let's do it right.

And it may sometimes it takes a lot longer than owners want it to take, but I'm like, it takes the time it takes.

Like there is no timeline.

We're doing things the right way.

And just like, you know, in an ideal world, I would be out competing preliminary right now with Stella.

But guess what?

If we go beginner novice in the fall, I'll be bloody tickled.

Like I don't care.

Well, when you're having fun, you know?

Yeah.

Like who cares?

And, you know, again, it's changing that narrative too with professionals and any riders, honestly, of like, just because you don't have all of these accolades or you haven't gone, you know, X level doesn't mean that people won't take you seriously because people watch what you do.

People see the horses that you work with.

And that's what I want.

That's what I want people to see me for is that I don't give up on a horse and that I treat them with respect.

I don't want to be known for, oh, well, you know, she came in third at this two stars.

So like, she might be pretty good.

But what's going on behind the scenes?

Will you make the end?

The biggest medal you can win is happy, comfortable, confident horses.

Like, I fucking win.

If I look out, born and your horses are happy and confident and able to express themselves, like that is priceless.

Yeah.

The biggest compliment I feel like I get is, when my vet comes for like vaccines and she's like, God, all of your horses look so good and they seem so happy.

I'm like, oh, I'm like, I'm like, I'm a high for the rest of the day.

I'm like, nothing can break me down.

Oh, man.

But dude, a horse is humbling, man.

Oh, yeah.

This is so humbling, but all the time I'm like, oh, do I really want to do horses anymore?

Then I'm like, then- Horse I do.

One horse like Stella has a breakthrough.

I'm like, horse I do.

What else would I do with my life?

Well, because then you think about everything it took to get to that, and especially with this disease, we actually looked it up right beforehand.

— MFM's Recent Discovery: Founded Only in 2017

It was just founded in 2017.

Yeah.

So this is- Was it really?

Yeah.

I know.

We're only eight years in.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So- It's funny that you say that because I've thought about this quite a lot of obviously hindsight 2020.

There are a couple of horses that I had eight years ago in for training, that I look back and I'm like, I think it was MSM or PSSM.

I didn't know what that was back then.

We had no idea.

I had no idea and the way I treated that particular horse, because I legitimately thought it had an attitude problem.

Looking back, I was like, well, I'm a dick.

But then you have to be like, no, you're just going to do better going forward.

You do better going forward.

I'm so glad that so much research is being poured into these types of issues, because I think we're going to find out going forward that it's more prevalent than anybody ever imagined.

And I think people recognizing, too, the difference in the spooks.

Like, there's a big difference.

These lights are on.

Like, it's a full-on dissociation, and it's not something that you can train out of them.

You're not talking to anyone.

You'll die.

You're flying a kite.

You'll die.

Yeah.

How to train your dragon.

This is not trainable.

They're just...

Yeah.

No.

And I just thought what you said.

I think about what would happen if someone else had mine.

Like, she probably would have been euthanized at this point.

And I even messaged Lexi, and I'll say this online.

Yeah.

There was a point where I was like, I think I need her to be on drugs just to go out.

I think I need to sedate her just to be in her pack.

She was so dangerous.

So she's going to kill herself or she's going to kill someone.

And I don't think that there's enough emphasis that goes on the behavior and how scary it is.

Because I think people just think it's just spooking, and it's like, no, babe, this is a different beast.

Panic attack.

No, like, oh, a complete panic attack.

Like, one instance comes to mind, and it was the same situation where she saw a neighbor's horse through the woods just standing there and started panicking.

And I thought if I could just, and I was on her, and I thought if I could just get her into the front field where she couldn't see that horse anymore, everything would be okay.

And she never came down from that spook.

It was complete association.

And like, when I tell you for a moment, I was like, I could ride her through this.

And then I very quickly realized, if I do not get off and walk this horse back to the barn, I am going to end up broken.

Like, without a doubt in my mind, I'm going to end up on the ground in an ambulance, because she was so blind at that point.

She did not know where her limbs were.

And like, she's very, she's very like, typically very good on her feet.

Like she knows where she is at all times.

She's not going to put herself in a compromising situation.

But at that moment, I was like, you might go up and over without even meaning to.

So I hopped off and I walked this volatile creature back to the barn and I called it a day.

And it hurt my ego a little bit.

But again, horses like these, they teach you that ego has no place in horses.

Well, it's your ego or your bones.

Yeah.

One's going to break.

You're like, you with the quotes today, you're on it.

I'm writing these down.

I love this so much.

Okay.

I'm so glad you are.

I don't have paper with me, but these are gold.

God bless.

I love it.

One's going to break.

Oh, your ego or your bones.

I'm using that from now on.

— Bone Health, Body Awareness & Riding Philosophy

I'd like to keep my bones.

I do too.

God bless my husband.

Sometimes he talks reasoning to me when I would just be stupid.

I don't think so.

There's so many times where he's like, no, you need to check yourself.

Yeah, I don't care if she didn't finish on a good note.

He's like, she's done.

Be done.

Yeah.

Be done for the day.

I'm like, yeah, you're right.

It doesn't matter.

That's another thing, especially with these horses and so many trainers.

I grew up being taught, end on a good note.

Always end on a good note.

That's bullshit.

Why?

Yes.

Girl, tell me, fucking tell me about it.

Yes.

I don't need to win.

He's my son.

He's my best friend.

Why do I have this thing where I'm like, I have to have the last say?

No, I fucking don't.

Because even if he did the behavior I was looking for real quick, now he's pissed at me and now I'm going to cry on my drive home because my horse is mad at me.

There's a difference between a good note to me is listening, like knowing when to stop and that's so hard.

It is so hard, especially as someone who's a perfectionist too.

It's one of those things where, okay, so you're having a good ride and then all of a sudden, the horse gets anxious and there's no bringing her down after that, and you just feel this need to keep trying.

You're not got, no, you just stop, go for a walk, walk home, tell her she's a good girl, walk home, start over tomorrow.

And that is something that has been a huge lesson I've learned as well.

And I wish more people would realize that I'm like, sometimes just call it a day.

Quit early.

Because it's, yep.

Quit early.

Who cares if you didn't do much?

Well, but that's always the rhetoric of like, we have to make them understand that we're in charge and that they are supposed to do what we want them to do.

Do they know what year it is?

It's 2020.

We don't know what year it is.

Right?

Literally, who cares?

I don't want my horse to, or I don't want my horse.

Yes, they have to know that they have to respect me and respect my space.

But yeah, for my safety and for other people's safety that might be handling my horse.

But you know, it's another thing of like the rhetoric and the language of people saying like, the horse is going to do what you ask it to do, no matter what, like you're going to make it do that, or the horse is going to jump the jump, or they're going to crash through it, like make the horse more scared of you than they are the jump.

And I'm like, no, it's so dumb.

I don't want to go around a cross country horse with my horse thinking, oh God, I'm terrified that my mother is going to beat me.

So like, I'm going to jump all the things.

I want her to be thinking, okay, let's calculate, let's make sure I'm getting to a good spot.

And if my rider puts me in a bad spot, I'm going to save her, or I'm going to make a good decision that saves both of us.

Fear should not be involved, but it just shouldn't.

There's this quote from Buck Brandeman, who basically on this same conversation was like, at some point there's going to be something that is scarier than you are.

Yes.

And then you're going to get hurt.

You're not going to have a horse.

You could die.

Your horse could die.

Your horse could never be sound again.

Like, it is not worth it.

But it's historically like with cowboy horses, I know that that's very different because like, you know, they actually have to do a job that is their life, their livelihood.

But like, we're women.

I don't know about, I mean, Taylor's tall.

I'm five foot two and 125 pounds.

I'm not forcing a horse to do anything.

So I'd rather get there on the same page as the horse and we're both having a good time.

— Partnership Goals: Both Horse & Rider on the Same Page

Yeah.

Like, no, I'm a small person.

Like, she's an, and Stella, she's a big bodied mare.

Like, it's a lot of horse and like, if she wants to buck me off, there's nothing I can do about it.

It's no, I can, I can ride a buck.

Like, I'm pretty good.

Yeah.

I can't stay on that mare.

Yeah.

If she wants me off, she may be going to be on the grounds.

Oh, yeah.

Damn.

So I'm like, I, I want to be her friend and partner in that.

Like, forever stay on her good side.

Yes, for everyone's sake.

And like, it's just, there should not be, there should not be any forcing involved or fear involved.

There should always be, it should be a conversation.

Like a consensual relationship.

Yes.

And yes, there are boundaries and respect in a consensual relationship.

Yes, of course.

You know, and people just have a really hard time wrapping their brains around that.

And that's something that I hope changes in the next several years or at least starts to change.

And I hope we're headed in the right direction.

I think we are.

I mean, the pendulum swings, as far as it went one way, it's going to go the same way, which, you know, I mean, when there's a lot of momentum in a pendulum swing, like, yeah, like we're going to over-correct.

Yes.

It's going to be hard when it gets too far.

It's going to get too crunchy.

But along.

Oh, yeah.

It's super granola.

It's fine.

We're all going to be Oregon moms.

It's fine.

But, you know, there's going to be some good learning along that way.

Like we can.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you know, grab on to what you can along the way before it gets.

Exactly.

You learn as you go, you know?

Yeah.

I had a trainer that used to call me the pendulum child because, you know, I'd do one thing and she'd be like, no, do it the other way.

And I'd go all the way the other way.

And she'd be like, oh, my God, eventually you'll end up in the middle.

And that's kind of how I live my life of like, okay, well, at some point, the momentum is going to stop and we're going to end up in the middle.

And that's where we're going to stay, you know?

Perfect.

It's always a learning curve.

And I think that just helps us grow as horse people, especially when dealing with horses with MFM and just sensitive horses in general, because some are just like people, some are far more sensitive than others.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Well, thank you so much for sharing her story.

Yeah, I feel like a horse to Taylor over again.

You're a really good storyteller too.

Thank you.

Like I was like, I was like, I never don't talk, Lexi.

Like, I never, I was like, I hope I'm not like, I was like, I hope I'm not like talking so much that they can't talk.

So, okay.

No, this is your story.

Yeah.

That's what we want this to be about.

No, thank you for having me.

Do you want to tell people how they can get in touch with you?

Yeah, sure.

So, you can, anybody can get on touch with me through Facebook.

I have a business page, Healing Intent Equine.

If I don't get back to you through there, just contact me through my personal page.

It's Lexi Freeman Rogers.

You can send me a Facebook message or for all I care, text or call me.

Can I get my number or I don't know how that works.

Whatever you want.

We can put it in the show.

Sure.

Yeah, you can do that.

Okay.

That's totally fine.

I'm one of those people like I just always want to help people.

So if anybody has questions or wants to reach out to me, go for it.

I'll try to remember to text people back.

When you're not busy trying to listen to your horse?

Yes, precisely.

For a full-time job.

Yeah, it really is.

Lexi, where in Georgia are you?

I know you're like south of the city.

So I'm in Rutledge.

So we're like 30 minutes from the International Horse Park in Conairs.

— Closing: Location, Resources & Final Thoughts

So not too terribly far.

Oh. I live in kind of the middle of nowhere, but I love it.

Okay. All right. Right on.

Okay. Okay.

Cool. Awesome.

All right. Dude, thank you so much again. We appreciate you.

Yeah, no, of course.

Thank you guys so much for having me.

This was super fun. Thank you.

Yeah, super fun.

So nice to meet you.

Yeah, you too.

All right, girl.

We'll catch up with you later.

Have a good day.

All right.

Y'all have a good rest of your day.

You too.

See ya.

Bye.

That was so good.

I love her.

I'm so sad that I'm meeting all these cool people in Georgia as I don't live in Georgia anymore.

Oh, my God.

She's so cool.

It's like the stories are so sane.

Yeah.

That was insane.

Like, I don't know if you saw me, like when she said she saw another horse and panicked, I looked at you and I was like, oh, my God.

I watched you.

That's crazy.

I just, I don't think they say it enough, like how much explosive behavior is a part of it.

And it's a safety issue.

Well, and not only that, if you can identify those explosive, you know, the lights on nobody's home thing, that's a way more helpful thing to tell your vet than their body sore, because that could be so many fucking things, right?

And they're gonna look for those first because we don't obviously know that much about it.

This hasn't been described for that long.

That's not something that you normally would think of, but as soon as those like key phrases, like the lights are on, nobody's home, she's panicking, her spooks are full on dissociative episodes, like, hello, that is the MFN bell.

Like that should be it.

That's not a, oh, maybe they need body work.

Oh, maybe it's just the ulcers.

No, that's like, that's a, that's time.

Don't even argue, just do the fucking biopsy.

Yeah, yeah.

That was nuts when she said that.

Well, I'm glad you guys have each other.

I feel so seen.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Like twins.

And like the 60s with the back on track sheet.

Oh my God.

That's your horse.

Yeah, same thing.

That's crazy.

If you or a friend have a topic, story or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

E8: Polyneuritis Equi: Finn's story

Wed, 03 Sep 2025 02:25:54 GMT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Polyneuritis Equi is a rare neurological disease causing inflammation of the cranial nerves and those of the cauda equina (end of the spinal cord). Kahlan and Taylor speak with Emma Sturtecky about her horse's journey through diagnostics and treatment of this rare disease. Spoiler alert, Finn is sound, happy and thriving today thanks to the joint efforts and Emma and Finn's incredible care team. Resources: pathogenes.com PS PLEASE SPEAK WITH YOUR VET Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoofcare Practitioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Equine Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook: The Red Mare Project Instagram: Wild_Hoof_Equine

— Intro: What Is Polyneuritis Equi & Introducing Emma

Welcome back to another episode.

Today, we have a very special guest on, here to tell us the story of her horse, Finn, and his difficult diagnosis of Polyneuritis equi.

Similar to that of Guillain-Barre syndrome in humans, PNE is an autoimmune pathology that typically affects the hind end and cranial nerves of the horse.

Welcome Emma and Finn.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

All right.

So before we have Emma come on, I think we should probably talk a little bit about what Polyneuritis equi is.

Yep.

So a lot of people liken it to Guillain-Barre in humans, and Guillain-Barre, it's an autoimmune condition where the immune system attacks the peripheral nerves, and it causes an ascending paralysis, meaning it starts from the feet and works its way up.

It's really rare.

It's an autoimmune response, and it's usually pretty quick onset.

But the onset is usually triggered by something acute, right?

Like an infection or a vaccine, something that's like a marked injury to the person's immune system.

Yeah.

Yeah, typically.

That's my understanding of it.

Yeah.

So in Polyneritis Equi, if you kind of look at the anatomy of it, it's a thickening of the cauda equana, which is why it's neuritis.

So we're going to get a little nerdy here.

So neuritis is, so itis, inflammation.

Inflammation of?

Inflammation of the nerves, poly meaning many.

So polyneritis meaning inflammation of many nerves.

And it's typically in the cauda equana, which are the nerve roots at the bottom of the spinal cord, which is why it tends to really affect the hind end.

Yeah, those, that presentation that you sent me, the affected part and then the normal nerve branch there, that difference was insane.

Oh, the visuals?

Oh my gosh.

That was, yeah, haunting.

Yeah, wow.

Normally you kind of have to, like with this kind of stuff, you have to like look for it.

I barely glanced at my phone while I played that and I was like, what?

It was, yeah.

That is a different thing altogether.

Yeah, it took me a second at first because it was so different, like.

Yeah, like what even is normal?

But when you were saying the thickening, like that's just so clear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And there are some studies showing that it does cause demyelination, which we won't get too much in that, but the myelin sheath is an encapsulation that's around the axon of the neuron.

Neurons make up nerves and the myelin around the axon is what allows a nerve to fire correctly.

So if there's demyelination or if the myelin sheath gets eroded or if there's something that happens to it, you can't get from point A to point B very clearly.

There's a kink in the wire.

When it comes to humans though, what I'm so curious about though is in the human world, which would be Guillain-Barre or the more chronic version, which is chronic inflammatory demyelinating cholineropathy, that's usually diagnosed with a spinal tap.

And I saw a little bit of reading that you can do that for PNE.

But it seems like they're leaning a bit more on that ELISA blood test with this.

Yeah.

And I want to know more about that because, like, that, first of all, that's an expensive test.

But, like, I don't actually know what they're looking for in that test.

ELISA?

Yeah.

It was above my head, too.

I just, phew.

Well, ELISA is just a methodology.

Oh.

Well, this is your world.

You talk.

I listen.

That's just, like, that's not, like, when you say ELISA test, that doesn't mean, like, CMP.

— ELISA Testing, Blood Work & Autoimmune Basics

Like, that's not, as far as I understand it, as my experience of blood goes, like, it's not a marker in itself.

Okay.

It's a way of doing a test.

So I'm actually interested in looking more into that research website that you had sent me, the pathogens, because I want to read the actual sample report.

Okay.

Yeah.

Like, what markers are they testing?

It sounds like, you know what?

I'm just going to look it up.

Yeah.

Do it right now.

Yeah.

It was, like, protein 2 was one of them.

But I know they have to rule out EHV.

They have to rule out EPM.

But when they rule out EPM, they can't really rule it out because it may be...

Part of it.

It may be part of it.

And you may have a positive, whether that's a high positive or not, it may be present.

And I mean...

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

Like, to me, that's not really a rule out.

I think what they do is they match it with very particular symptoms, like on the clinical presentation.

So, I think if those labs match the clinical presentation, then Bob's your uncle.

Yeah.

Yeah, we need to get a doctor on to talk about this.

Yeah, we'll get a doctor on.

Because I have a lot of questions.

Okay, I think that...

I think...

I would imagine...

I guess I can't make that assumption.

I wonder if we're having a higher volume of this kind of disease state in horses.

I think that's a fair thing.

I mean, granted, I'm bringing...

I'm saying this from a very biased standpoint.

And we'll do...

I mean, just for listeners.

So my husband has been on...

I'm going to call it a wellness journey, because we don't say the word sick, because it gives it power, and we don't do that.

So we are on a wellness journey that is neurologically based.

I'm going to say that.

He was originally diagnosed with Guillain-Barre, but that was incorrect.

So this is all very close to home.

But after being in this world for as long as we have been, I think that there is a lot of weird neuroitis, and I say it that way because I'm breaking them apart.

There's a lot more out there than we think.

And it sounds like it's coming up more and more.

Right?

Like maybe one of those things like E coli, we all have it.

But who's going to be bothered?

Where's the imbalance that's going to cause it to flare or be a problem in your system where otherwise it would be sleeping?

I wonder if it's something like that.

And if so, what is the trigger?

Is it because we're over-vaccinating?

Is it because of the way we eat?

Is it because of what we're exposed to chemically, like environmental toxins?

That's what I want to know in the horse world.

Like, does it have to do with breeding in horses?

Are different horses with different confirmations going to present differently?

I mean, those are all really good thoughts.

And I mean, it's- Answer my questions, Taylor.

I'll say this.

I ask them like, oh, you know the answer.

And I'm like, okay, I'm trying.

And you know.

I mean, honestly, I mean, all those things are affecting us as a species.

Why wouldn't it affect them as well?

They're domesticated just like we are.

And in a lot of ways, they're way more sensitive.

Yeah.

Well, because we can't sit down and tell them like, listen, this is what's happening.

We can't really do that.

We can do that to humans, but it goes only so far.

But I think a lot of the way that we exist as species is not appropriate.

— Nervous System Overload: Modern Horses & Immune Disease

And that's an unnecessary tax on the nervous system.

And it's manifesting in these different ways.

And it can't combat those toxins that just exist in the world.

It's like what you're saying.

Yeah, our immune systems are collectively freaking out.

Yeah.

So we get weird stuff.

We get weird stuff.

But you know what?

With weird stuff comes people like you who want to do the weird research.

So hopefully, at least this episode will be helpful to someone.

Yeah.

Should we go over just a little bit what the more textbook presentation looks like, just so folks can have a picture?

I'd love to.

Yes, I would love to.

Okay.

Just so there's like, you know, folks can have an idea of what to look for.

Yeah.

Okay.

So they follow what's called a four dice scale, and in order to qualify for a diagnosis, you need to have four of the following, in addition to the labs that you were just talking about, the ELISA.

Okay.

So weakness of the tail, and the way that it was seen is that it's like there's no tone in the tail.

Like when horses walk, they usually have it up a little bit.

This one is just flat.

It's like sloppy, like almost like they don't have control over it.

Loss of sensation around the anus.

They might actually have some dribbling of the urine, or an inability to retain urine, or they do the opposite and just retain it.

So much worse.

Yeah.

Or they retain feces as well because there's rectal dysfunction.

The face stuff was very interesting to me.

I mean, yeah, but it makes sense with the cranial nerves.

Yeah.

So they would have...

So cranial nerve neuropathy.

So there was a video that I saw where Yvette was just doing a test on the face, where they were just like running his finger down the cheek, and she did nothing.

He didn't know anything.

This horse almost looked like he had like Bill's palsy, where there was a facial droop.

So when I was looking at it yesterday, one of the first resources that came up was something calling it Horner syndrome.

Oh, what's that?

Like, so a Horner's, that's a Horner's palsy look.

Okay.

Is what a Horner's response looks like.

Okay.

So I didn't read that because that was a people thing.

Oh, oh, okay.

But I want to know more about that.

Like, are we talking like inability to chew level palsy, or like with that one horse, I mean, they could just about touch him in the eyeball and he didn't move.

Like, he just had no response to anything like around here and here and all the way down his cheek.

Like, that's terrifying.

Because what if a horse, like, I'm thinking about all the scary things I've seen with horses.

What if they, you know, get a piece of hay that had a branch in it or something and they don't know, and they've got this wound in their mouth that you don't know until it abscesses or kills them.

Yeah.

And they're not going to...

Yeah, that's so scary.

Yeah.

Or, like, biting their tongue.

I don't...

Yeah.

I don't know if it extends that far.

I'm not, I'm not sure.

And then an ear droop was another one, too.

So there was a, like, a head-on visual of a horse's face, and one ear was erecting, the other one was just eeyore.

Floppy.

Yeah.

And I thought that was really kind of wild.

Yeah, they could just, like, kind of flap it around, like, like it was not a living thing.

Yeah.

So I think the cranial nerve stuff is not essential.

I think the main presentation is hind and...

— PNE Symptoms: Hind End Neuropathy & Cranial Nerve Signs

Symptoms.

Neuropathy, yeah.

And more so, like, incontinence kind of issues.

And for me...

Yeah, there was a big focus on the urine scalding.

In that one presentation that you sent, there was a big focus on the urine scalding, which, I mean, that can lead to so many other issues, especially with retention of the urine.

I mean, if you're not, if you don't live with your horses or you don't have a very astute barn manager where you're boarding them, that could kill them faster than anything else.

Retaining?

Oh, wow.

And, like, that's the scariest thing to me.

Thinking at UTIs, right?

Absolutely.

I've never thought about that.

It's not common, because for male horses, that's a long way for bacteria to go.

But if urine is just sitting there and sitting there and sitting there, like, that can do permanent damage on the kidneys.

Like, that can lead to acute kidney injury.

And if you have a horse who's not feeling the pain in that area, or doesn't have control over it, you're not going to know until it's really bad, and then potentially they are, like, dealing with a sepsis episode.

I mean, obviously, I'm, like, I'm, you know, rabbit trailing into the worst possible things I could think of that would happen.

Yeah.

Like, there's just so many questions.

Like, how is this going to look?

You know, I haven't met Emma yet.

I don't know what her story sounds like.

I know her horse is alive, so that's the good news.

Yeah.

But I don't, like, I don't know anything about this.

I've never met a horse that was diagnosed with this.

But as we talk about it, I'm thinking about all the horses that probably had this.

I, okay, so every single horse that I've met that had a, quote, successful Lyme treatment, they still are not normal.

Oh.

So, and I do know that certain things trigger them.

Depending, I mean, depending on the horse, like, I've seen diet changes trigger them, stress, you know, they don't trailer well, all these different things, like these things that are mildly stressful to horses, but in a horse that's compromised, they just can't handle it.

It triggers another flair and people call it an EPM flair when they've been treated.

Well, that makes me...

That's just my experience.

That makes you think.

Yeah, so I'm really interested.

I'm really interested to see, like, what the treatment protocol is for this in particular, because I don't know if hers was viral triggered or bacterially triggered or anything.

Like, I have no idea.

So I'm really excited to get into it.

And I'm also, I'm already, like, my mind is already blown.

Yeah, this is a big one.

All right.

She's ready to go for the Zoom.

Let's jump in.

Yes, I can hear you.

I see something just popped up.

Okay there.

Can you hear me okay?

Yes.

Hi, it's so nice to meet you.

So nice to meet you as well.

Thank you for having me.

Oh my gosh.

Thank you so much for coming.

Well, welcome.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your horse?

Yeah.

So my name is Emma and I have a Hennevarian gelding named Finn and he came into my life back in 2020 as a three coming four-year-old and the whole reason I actually got him was because my mare that was a thoroughbred, she had done the adult hunters with me for years and she was just getting ready to step down in her career.

She was having some soundness issues so I was looking for my next hunter and I had actually gone down to Florida and tried a bunch of horses and vetted one and he didn't pass so we ended up coming back up to Ohio and he was basically right in our backyard.

— Emma's Background & Finding Finn in Florida

So yeah, so he was not broke yet so when I went to go look at him, we just watched him lunge and they sent him over a couple of jumps on the lunge line and the second I saw this horse jump, I knew he was the one.

He just had a lot of talent and just the coolest personality.

So that is how he came into my life and I've had him, I guess, for five years now.

I can't even believe it's been five years.

Yeah, it really does fly.

It's crazy to think how long I've had my horse, but 2020 was actually a long time ago, so.

It really was.

All right, so he's like, he's nine now, then?

Yes, yep.

He's nine, okay.

And then, so you do the hunters.

So are you an adult amateur?

I am, yes.

I rode professionally for, I guess, it was about a year when I was getting my master's degree.

And once I finished that, I decided, I want to go back to being an amateur.

I want to just enjoy my horses.

And because I have a degree outside of horses, so I figured I want to do my thing as a tax analyst and support the horses and just go back to being an amateur and just enjoying my horses from an amateur side of things.

So I reinstated that.

And yeah, I've been, we're showing as an amateur for the last few years again.

That's really, that's awesome.

That's incredible that you went pro in grad school.

Like that's the process.

That's pretty intense.

Wow.

It was a lot, but it was really fun.

I gained a lot of knowledge through it and just kind of seeing things from a different perspective of kind of being, doing the juniors and I did the children's hunger, but being a junior and then going to professional line, going back to being on the amateur side, like it was just a really cool opportunity to see a lot of different things from a different perspective.

So I thought that was really interesting being able to do that.

And yeah, that's really cool.

Excellent.

So you guys were up in Ohio, you said, and then so now you are in, you're in Rome, Georgia area?

Is that where you are?

I'm actually, I'm in the Chickamauga area.

My horses were being boarded in Rome for about a year while we were finishing our barn, but they just came home in July.

So they're home with me now and it was a long road to get them home.

Building a barn has been, it's been exciting, but it has been very stressful.

But it was worth it.

It turned out beautiful and they're super happy and nothing beats going down to do night check in pajamas.

Like, that is fun.

I feel that.

Good for you.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Excellent.

Yeah.

So we wanted to hear a little bit more about Finn's story with Polyneuritis Equi.

And I know that's probably like a huge story.

So I guess, however, you want to start introducing that.

Yeah.

So when I got Finn, like I said, he was not broke out yet.

And I ended up leaving him with his breeder for about a month.

I think it was a month, month and a half.

And they broke him out for me and they just did the most fabulous job with this horse.

Like he just had the best personality.

And he was so well balanced as a young horse.

And I wrote on the IHSA team in college, like I've written a lot of different horses and unbiased, but he was just the most balanced baby I have ever sat on.

And he was just such a cool horse, like nothing bothered him, just such an easy, simple young horse.

— Finn Arrives: Easy Young Horse with Big Promise

And I brought him back after they did the initial breaking out and put some miles on him.

And when he came to me, he started out fantastic and just took everything in stride and had no issues.

And then I'd say probably about like six months later, I started having some issues where he was just tripping and just became kind of spooky.

And like he didn't want people touching him, like especially people he didn't know.

Like every time I'd have someone come to like either do bodywork or the vet, like they would go to touch him and it would almost look like he was just like climbing up, just cringing at like the sight of anyone even touching him.

Really?

And so he took a pretty good stumble with me.

And so I had the vet come out and just wanted like a once-over done on him to make sure like everything was good because tripping is just not normal.

Especially like even though he was a young horse, like it just didn't feel like a young horse trying to figure out his feet, especially when he previously had been so like sure of himself and just so confident and to see him kind of take that step back was just a red flag to me.

So at this point I had the vet come out and they did some x-rays on his feet because his heels were starting to under run slightly and he was barefoot.

He had really great feet.

Nothing showed up on his pre-purchase that was out of the ordinary.

Like his angles all looked good.

And when we did these x-rays, he was slightly negative palmar angle.

I'd say a little more on the neutral side.

So at this point, we didn't want to be super aggressive.

So we went back to the farrier and just said, you know, get a little more aggressive with your trim, but we're not going to do pads.

We're not going to do shoes.

Let's just try to slowly bring him back and kind of rehab his feet a little bit.

So we started doing that.

And about six months later, it was just we were going the opposite direction.

He was just getting more negative in his feet.

And he started to develop a resistance under saddle where he just didn't want to go forward.

And I had so many people telling me, it's just a young horse being a young horse.

And I just knew deep down, it was not a young horse being a young horse.

Something was bothering him.

And he started doing this thing where I would ask for a trot and he would kind of hop like he was going into the canner.

And probably 10 minutes in, like once you kind of got that initial trot or maybe even the second trot, he would just trot off fine again, like nothing was wrong.

But when he would just start out in the beginning, it was so, he was so resistant and he became very spooky.

And so we did a trial over Nididine just because ulcers is always your first thought.

And he did have some big changes, changing farms and grain and hay.

And he just, he made no change.

It just nothing we were doing was really helping him at the time.

So we got a little bit more aggressive and we threw shoes on him with some pads.

And at that point, he just became so choppy in his stride.

It just, we were just going backwards.

And the poor horse, he was trying so hard to try to show me something was wrong.

And he was never aggressive about showing me like that he was in pain.

He just, he had these weird things that were just not normal for him.

— First Red Flags: Behavior Changes & Shoeing Issues

And so we, we were messing with shoes.

And then unfortunately, I was leaving Ohio.

So I had moved to Florida and we had a different ferrier pickup at the time.

So we started messing with some shoes again.

And I now just having a new ferrier with a different method and style.

It just nothing was fixing it.

It was just everything we were doing was making it worse.

And like the biggest thing for me that I felt was like the weight of the shoe really made a difference for him, which kind of sounds crazy because the difference between aluminum and steel, I feel like is not that big.

But he is for him, I guess.

Yeah, it was for him.

Can I ask, was he tripping up front or was he tripping behind?

Up front.

He never had any issues behind.

This was all up front.

So yeah, this is all my questions are out the window now, Emma, because I was not expecting you to say that.

The first time you said that he took a tumble, it sounded like it was in the front.

Yeah, and he actually had gone down to his knees and came back up.

So he never truly fell, but it was a big enough tumble, he went down to his knees and his knee was a little puffy.

So that was why I was like, let's just get the vet out because this tripping is not right.

And now we have a little bit of a knee.

I just want to make sure everything was good.

And when you guys did RADS, I just kind of watched over it.

Was he negative behind or a front?

This was all up front.

Did you radiograph his hinds?

You know what, I don't think at the time, so originally when we did the pre-purchase, we did.

But I don't think the first time I had that vet out, once I had him at the farm, I don't think we did do hinds.

And I think because most of it was up front and he wasn't showing any lameness anywhere, it was just that chirping up front.

So I think at the time, my vet just figured, let's just do fronts because that's where it was coming from.

Did your farrier at the time make any notations about anything weird going on on his hinds during this time, or just just his fronts?

He did not.

Really?

Yes.

And the changes up front were so small that to the eye, you would never pick it up.

I mean, as a farrier, you probably would.

But for an amateur owner, I never picked up the changes to look like where it was like, one day he had super high heels and then the next day it was like super under run.

It was never like that.

The changes were so small that the average amateur owner would probably never pick them up.

So, yeah, this is not exactly the conversation I thought we were going to have.

You're like really throwing me for a loop right now.

Which, like, I guess when you think about it, it makes sense.

But I thought that everything was going to be, you know, it was going to be more of an obvious hind end issue for obvious reasons.

It was more of that, like, did you have any problems with the rush or managing to keep his feet clean?

Did he have a hard time picking up his feet for the barrier?

Were there any?

Yeah, none of that.

He, I mean, literally the only thing that started out in the beginning was the tripping and just being very, like, touchy and then that little bit of resistance under saddle.

I mean, I never had any signs of showing any sort of resistance on the ground with, like, picking things up or looking uneven anywhere.

All of his muscles, like, muscles looked great.

— Muscle Atrophy Absent, But Something Isn't Right

Like, there was no atrophy anywhere.

It was strictly just in behavior.

Okay, so then, how did we get here?

Because I was picturing it, like, I was prepared to ask very different questions, and now, like, this is falling apart before my eyes.

I'm blown away by how this is presenting, and I'm really impressed with you as an owner.

You keep calling yourself an amateur owner.

Girl, you're doing much better than a lot of people who've had horses for 30 years.

You listening to him so closely and really being his advocate, that's not, that's not an amateur thing to do.

So, give yourself a little bit of credit on his behalf.

So, after the puffy knee, what, what was your next step?

Like, how did we get here?

So, once we started messing with the feet some more, and we put the shoes on, we just kept trying to change things with the feet.

And Micah just kept telling me this isn't feet related.

Like, I do think the feet had a piece in it because at this point, we did have a negative palmar angle.

And I think the shoeing packages that he had on just were not helping that situation.

But he ended up having more of this resistance once I moved to Florida.

And it was just, it was getting worse.

Like, he just really was shutting down in that first initial picking up the trot.

And it just, it wasn't worth pushing.

He was telling me something was wrong.

So I had another vet come out and got a second opinion.

And I was very fortunate because the vet that was in Ohio was still staying in touch with me.

And so I kind of had the best of both worlds, having two heads together to try to figure this out.

And he just that same choppy stride resistance.

So this vet kind of looked more towards the shoulder area, because I started feeling at this point, almost like the right front shoulder couldn't swing forward.

And it was never true, like lameness.

Like you, I feel like most people probably wouldn't realize that he was having that forward swing, like resistance at first because he just, he didn't look off.

It was just, it just felt like, yeah, it just felt like it couldn't swing forward as much.

And I could really feel it when I was riding.

So this vet went and really dug into that right front shoulder.

And he did thermal scans, which again, nothing came back significant with that.

X-rays, he was also a podiatrist.

So it was cool having that aspect of being able to, yeah, have that second opinion of someone that specializes in feet.

And same thing, nothing.

I mean, his feet weren't any better, but they weren't any worse.

And they just, they were kind of staying consistent with pads and shoes.

A little wedge was kind of keeping him happy with his feet.

And so he ended up injecting the bursa in the shoulder.

And he came back, no change with that.

So then we looked at the neck, because again, like that tripping, the first thing you want to go to is neck.

And again, no significant findings on that.

He had some swelling in his neck, which I'm sure was all related to compensating at this point.

Yeah.

And so nothing came back crazy with that.

When you say swelling, what do you mean?

What was swollen?

So it was in between the vertebrae, there was some slight effusion.

So it wasn't anything crazy.

He didn't really have any massive arthritic changes.

But of course, my brain goes to like, oh my gosh, wobblers, because there was tripping, and we have some swelling in the neck.

— Ruling Out Wobblers, Injections & Chasing Answers

But nothing came back with injecting that.

We tried injecting a few spaces in the neck, like that didn't make a change at all.

But then we tried going into the brachial plexus of that shoulder.

And that made no change either.

So then we kind of just took a whole different approach.

And after injecting these few areas with no success, my vet at the time was like, let's just test for EPM and Lyme's, because he thought that it was really strange that this horse was so sensitive to touch.

And I've never experienced that before in a horse.

Was he getting more trippy as you're doing these diagnostics, as you're like doing the detective work?

Was he getting more trippy or more thrushy?

Did he lose weight?

Was he like, were you seeing anything that would make you think it was a degeneration?

No, he was not.

The tripping, I would say, actually almost got a little bit better, because I was doing a lot of in-hand work, which I think was helping with just kind of supporting the muscles.

Sure.

And again, at this point, there was still no atrophy in any of his muscles.

He was just kind of plateauing, like nothing was really getting worse, nothing was really getting better.

And he, yeah, just nothing really showed up that was out of the ordinary to be like, this is degenerative or anything really joint related, even at this point.

So were those injections, steroid injections, or did you guys do biologics?

No, they were all steroid.

So is there any consideration that, even though these were localized steroids, that they could still have, like, an immune-suppressing response for it?

No, because at this point, we do not even think that anything out of the ordinary, like, that this could be polyneuritis.

At this point, we all just thought it was an injury somewhere that we just couldn't pinpoint.

And so that's why this vet finally was like, let's take a totally different approach and test for EPM and LIMES.

And that's probably a vet question.

But I guess what I'm trying to ask is like, because usually prednisone or any type of steroid is used for these autoimmune issues, I don't know if maybe doing that series of injections kind of facilitated that plateau that you guys were hitting.

I don't know.

Yeah, it could have been.

It could have been because to my point exactly, so once we tested for EPM, we tested for LIMES.

So the crazy thing that came back.

So with EPM, he only tested slightly positive.

It was nothing off the charts, and at that point, we decided to treat just because he had a slight positive.

And my vet at the time was like, this couldn't even just be an exposure amount.

It was so small.

But the weird thing that came back with the LIMES disease was he tested positive for the antibodies only.

Because with the LIMES test, there's three areas that it comes back with, and it's been a while since I've looked at the results, but one is for antibodies, and then the other is to tell if it's chronic or not.

Correct.

Yeah.

He only tested positive for antibodies.

His breeder probably thought I was crazy because I reached out to her and I'm like, you didn't happen to do some vaccine for LIMES, because there are people that give the blood vaccine for LIMES disease.

Yeah.

It can trigger this, I think it's OSPA, I guess the one that's on it.

Yeah.

Which is the one I used.

— Positive EHV-1 Test & Narrowing Down the Diagnosis

That's what he tested positive for.

It was small too.

It was like equivocal, I think is what they came back with.

We decided, let's do minocycline and actually, I think started with doxycycline and he had no response really.

Then we went for minocycline, which now after I had done a bunch of research, even in people, I guess a lot of people don't respond to doxy, it's the minocycline that they really get the response from.

Yeah.

So to your point, he was plateauing where he was functional.

He was getting a little bit better and he was trying and he was comfortable enough to do a little bit of work.

The second that we would come off of it, because I think it was a 30-day supply, within two weeks, he was back to feeling like crap again.

He was getting lethargic then.

I would find him lying down a lot in his stall.

He was lying down in the pasture.

He was just really like blah.

He wasn't himself.

For a young horse, you especially don't want to see that.

You want to see a young horse just having a good time out in the field and he's out there lying down.

So he would get a little bit better, but the second he'd come off of it, it would go back again.

We even went to the point where we had IV Oxy-Tetracycline and that again helped a little bit.

Then it was like he would just go back again.

Same thing with the EPM meds.

We did in Marquis and Rebalance and he did a cycle of that.

The beginning stages of that, it was rough.

The vet said they can have a die-off period.

Well, I don't know if he was having a die-off period or if it just wasn't working, but it was really rough in the beginning taking those meds.

And same thing got a little better and got worse.

And so we ended up getting him at a good place.

And I had found a trainer who I am forever grateful for because she had very strong backgrounds in biomechanics.

And she came along and not only does she just validate what I was feeling, because I had so many people telling me, it's just a baby who was being a baby.

And just finding excuses for why he was feeling and doing things that he was doing.

So this trainer that came in, she was just phenomenal because she was able to pinpoint and be like, I know exactly what you're feeling.

And she had such a great knowledge on the horse that she would be able to sit there and be like, he's not landing right in his foot this way.

And she would be able to do the farrier best.

And so the farrier was tweaking things that was actually starting to help a little bit.

So she kind of came in and started taking a hold of everything and kind of helping push me in the right direction.

And she found the saddle.

So we ended up finding out the saddle was making a big difference for him.

He is a pretty big horse.

We ended up finding out that he is a bit of a hoop tree because he is that wide.

So we found that I had tried probably 50 saddles.

I probably spent more money in shipping saddles than I did actually paying for the saddle.

Yeah, I feel that.

We were trying to find the saddle that worked for him.

And we found that a regular jumping saddle was cutting too far forward onto his scapula and just any slightest bit of pressure on that right front scapula.

So we finally found a saddle.

We had a custom saddle made that basically was a dressage panel that had a jumper flap over the top of it.

So I had a pretty good idea that what was going on was happening in the shoulder.

— Shoulder Suspicion, Dressage Saddle & Gradual Improvement

So then he was starting to get better because we were riding him in the dressage saddle.

And he was on it all.

I'm looking on it now.

There were all these anti-inflammatories that was helping mask some of the issues he was having.

And when I had turned him out and he had laid down like he normally does and rolled.

And as he got back up, his leg went under the metal fence and he lacerated it down to the bone.

And at first, I was like, it didn't bleed at first for like the first 30, I mean, I saw the whole thing happen.

And at first it was not bleeding.

So I'm like, oh, we're good.

Then I saw the blood squirting out and I'm like, wait, it was squirting?

Was it actually squirting?

It was squirting out.

Did he have an artery?

He did not.

I got so lucky.

So I called, I was down in Florida at the time.

And I call and I'm like, I have a horse that lacerated his leg, like someone needs to come out here.

Now?

And yeah, I was like, now?

And so the vet that was there on call was like, you know, based off of what you're telling me, I think you should just put them on the trailer.

And of course, this darn horse did not want to load.

We got a lot of hurt.

A lot of load?

So I have a standing wrap on it.

I like cleaned it the best I could, put a standing wrap on it.

After like 45 minutes, we finally get him on the trailer and I take him to Palm Beach Equine.

And they x-rayed, they ultrasounded, they did where they call it distending of the joint where they, I guess, pump like air into it and take an x-ray to make sure like a joint wasn't touched.

This horse missed every internal structure by millimeters.

And they sutured him up.

He had staples at the end of it, like it healed.

It's just a fresh wound.

Yep.

And so I got so lucky.

He was a good dad.

They told me I could take him home that day, but I was like, you know, honestly, because this needs like really wrapped up and like he just needs to be really calm.

I'm like, let's just keep him here for a couple of days.

So he ended up coming home and he had some time off.

And then we put him back into work again and kind of the same thing.

He was just like holding like steady.

The saddle was really making a difference for him.

He was just kind of starting to feel a little bit better.

We threw him on BCAA, which was my trainer's recommendation.

That made a huge difference for him because he was starting out kind of stiff and he would work out of it.

So we were thinking, could this be muscular?

So we kind of just put on hold like any injections because nothing was working and none of these medications were really working.

We were going on and off the Lyme's treatment.

And so then a couple months later, he ended up laying, he was laying in a stall one night and I guess morning and he went to go get up.

And we had a CBS barn being in Florida.

So it was like a cinder block barn.

And our doors, our Dutch doors were like a very heavy metal.

This was somehow you leaned against the Dutch door, trying to get up and slid his leg in between a concrete and the Dutch door and was pinned for like 45 minutes.

For now, it was horrible.

And I had to pull, I don't know how I even got this door open.

Yeah, I went to mom's strength.

That's mom's strength.

And I got the door open and same thing, I was like panicking because I'm like, there's no cuts, but like the second you know something's wrong.

— Finn Goes Down Again: A New Crisis Erupts

Yes, something was wrong.

He was lame on this one.

He was never lame with the laceration.

He was lame.

He was actually panting in his stall because he was in so much pain.

And so I had the vet out again and he went through the whole like x-rays, all ultrasound, all of that.

He ended up not being fine.

Wow.

My gosh.

It was just massive bruising.

And so at this point, because I had just massive amounts of that fills up, I was like, I'm going to submit this as a claim for insurance.

So this is why we have it.

It's for major medical issues like this.

So I contacted my insurance agent, which I'm sure was like again, because I did this for the last time.

So this is now the second or third claim I've opened on this horse for having just like injury after injury.

And I told her what was going on.

And she's like, you know, I have this wonderful vet.

She's down in Loxahatchee.

And she's like, she would just be great to have as a second opinion.

And she's like, this is just not normal that he's having all these injuries, which totally agree.

I mean, most people don't have any major injuries like this.

And I was lucky, unlucky enough to have two.

And so, we have this fed out.

And I remember I was with my family on a Sunday when she called me to set up the appointment.

And she, I was on the phone with her for probably an hour and a half, just explaining his entire story.

Cause now we're going on four years of this.

Something after something.

Yeah, something after something and just no one being able to identify any major issues or really get anywhere.

So she, after talking to her, she pretty much hit the nail on the head and she, she said, you know, I think you're worse as polio, right?

And so I had no clue what this is.

Okay.

So she's a psychic.

Yes.

She is the most impressive person.

And I remember hanging up and having, I had so much hope at this point because she was like, this is fixable.

She kept telling me this is fixable.

And she, of course she told me, do not Google this, but what am I doing?

Anything medical, I am the first to Google because I always, I always run off of the assumption like you prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

And so I wanted to know what this was that we were potentially dealing with.

So I had called my trainer and I was like, this is what she thinks it is.

Like, here's what we're going to do.

She's coming out.

She's, we're going to go download the route of this and see what happens.

So she came out and she was like, the reason why your horse is having all these injuries is because of polyureitis, which I never even put two and two together.

He used to always get cast.

And I thought it was just because he was a big horse and a regular size stall.

And it was all because of this polyureitis.

And this is where when you ask, like, did he have any high-dense stuff?

Not really.

But like looking back, that is a high-dense stuff.

It was kind of a high-dense stuff, yeah, a high-dense.

Because he was having a hard time getting up.

And so he, she did the blood test.

And she did, she sent it off to pathogens with Dr.

Ellison.

And as far as I'm aware, she's the only one that does the polyureitis testing.

Yeah, yeah.

And just she, it's amazing how much, like, backlash she gets for, like, her lab with, like, a lot of people just don't want to use her.

— Dr. Divers & the Pathogenes Lab: Controversial but Crucial

And this vet had done research with her and just really liked it.

And I'm so grateful that she was using pathogens, because we used that as a way to determine he had polyureitis.

And then one of the really cool things that she did was she actually took, like, a blunt, like, end of, like, pair of scissors.

They're not like the sharp kind, but, like, you know, like a surgical cutting kind.

And she ran it down the side of his, like, tail on his hind end.

And he had no reaction.

And she said, This is polynoreitis.

And he had no definition in the tail.

Like, you would lift it up, and you could just lift his tail up.

Which, like, I had no clue that was a thing.

A test to do.

And I'm not going back there lifting my horse's tail level.

What's happening to me?

So, like, no.

Tone.

Is that what you're saying?

Right.

Yeah.

There was no tone to it.

So, that was another thing.

So, we sent the blood work off, and he came back and had it.

So, we did NeuroQuel, which is lavamisole.

And we gave him, it was a big tablet that I just fed to him in his brain.

And I will, I still remember very vividly, the day or two days later, I pulled him out to luncheon for the first time just to see where we were at.

And I remember holding my breath because I was just so optimistic that, like, we finally had some answers.

And I remember putting him on the lunch line and, like, just being so ecstatic because he was the soundest he had ever looked in his entire life.

And just two days of being on the medication, like, it made that much of a difference.

Wow.

And the spooking was gone.

He didn't care about being touched anymore.

Like, all these weird things.

I'm going to cry.

Weird.

In two days, it wasn't even like this took time.

Like, two days, all these symptoms started going away.

And my, I remember my trainer coming out, and she was like, this is like, she was just as happy as I was.

And like, having someone so supportive that like validated me since day one, and just rode it all out with me throughout this time was so huge.

I'm like, she was just equally as happy.

And I kid you not, like, it was just this horse went from like having these baby moments of like, just not really doing a whole lot because we weren't pushing him to going and jumping three foot courses.

Like, within a year, we were horse shelling.

And he just made huge improvements.

And like, we still were in the saddle because to this day, anything that touches that shoulder, like he obviously has nerve damage there.

It's the trigger.

And yep.

And so anything that presses on that, like it's sensitive.

But I know now like he went through two weeks of treatment and then he kind of got like where I just didn't feel like he was quite right again.

So we ended up putting him back on the medication for, it was like every other day for another two weeks.

And he was great.

So then he came off of meds entirely.

And then during that time, I actually moved to Georgia.

So I ended up course showing him when he moved here.

And then I can't even remember what exactly triggered him.

He kind of had like that little bit of like, things were starting to make him spooky again.

And like the right shoulder didn't feel quite right.

So at this point I knew he just needed to go back on medication.

And every time he goes back on medication when he has what I call like a flare up, this medication just takes him back to feeling great, being normal.

— Finding the Right Medication: Flare-Ups & Breakthroughs

And yeah, I mean, I had the horse again that I purchased because the horse that I got was just he was amazing.

I mean, I had no complaints.

Like his breeder did such a phenomenal job putting the foundation on him and just breeding a great horse.

I mean, he really truly was a phenomenal horse since the day that I got him.

And just having him back on like going through that treatment and being on the Lavanosal just gave me back my horse again and he was amazing.

He was awesome.

So now, just so you just gave me like happy chills, but to bring it back to like before, he had been through a lot of different drugs.

He had.

So I imagine like building up his gut and his nutrition, you know, that's my bread and butter.

That's the thing I care most about.

Yeah.

That was probably like another expense, another like hurdle.

Do you feel like anything that you did before, like with the cyclines, do you feel like that had any long-term effect on him?

Are you doing any feed-throughs now, like vitamin E or Lion's Mane to help?

Just manage symptoms when he's not on medication?

Yes.

So the biggest thing for him, I took him off of all grain.

He is not getting any commercial grain.

Right now, he gets a Timothy pellet and he's on Mad Barns.

Nidhi, I think that's how you pronounce it.

He does not get any excess sugars.

I get tested hay.

I have gone through a complete diet overhaul because whether or not the sugars really played a huge difference for him, I just didn't want anything inflammatory in his diet period.

I didn't want anything feeding into it.

I know it's super important to have their gut healthy, so I just didn't want any of that extra stuff.

He went on a complete diet overhaul.

I do give him vitamin E.

He gets 4,000 IUs extra a day.

Awesome.

He gets chia seeds, salt.

I went through a complete diet overhaul because I knew what I was feeding was not helping him.

Yeah.

So- It's the year.

Yes.

Wow, that's awesome.

I do all this.

I mean, it was a struggle because when this all happened, when Esther was switching mover in Florida, it was easy because in the sense of like, I was able to feed him what I wanted.

Finding tested hay in Florida is really hard because you just can't buy large quantities unless you're feeding a big barn and you can buy a semi truck full.

But I was getting hay delivered every week.

So for me, that part was really challenging.

But now bringing him back to my own farm here, in Georgia, that's where I've been able to get the tested hay.

And I have just completely revamped everything to really feed the way that I want to feed him and want him eating.

I love that for you.

I am so happy to hear you say that.

That's awesome.

That's like, you just said you don't know how much difference the sugar in his diet is actually making.

A lot, girl.

Like you were doing so much for him and listening to him so well.

How are his feet now?

So that's the scary thing.

I just did this scary, scary thing and pulled off shoes off of him.

So I knew over the last couple of years.

You're in the right club.

Yeah, I know.

I knew over the last couple of years, like his shoeing, we were keeping him like, okay.

And when I say okay, like it was, he was functioning, but it was not optimal.

Like he just, I know his feet were not where they wanted to be, where I wanted them to be.

— Pulling the Shoes: Starting the Barefoot Journey

And so I ended up pulling his shoes off just a few weeks ago.

This all just started a few weeks ago for me.

And we pulled him out of steel.

And he is in cloud boots right now.

And we're hoping in the next couple of weeks, he's going to get his first set of composite shoes.

So I was so excited.

He had made such big improvements.

His heels are finally starting to like not be so under run.

His rug's not so prolapsed.

Like he is just, it's like taking his shoes off have been like another puzzle piece that I was missing in all of this, because now his body is like, it's starting to even out because we realized like after we started treating him, he did have some muscle atrophy in that right shoulder.

So now that's starting to like still back in.

He's had some body work in conjunction with it.

So he's just getting the whole treatment and it's kind of just putting everything in its place.

So it's been a really kind of woman who needs to have horses.

That's awesome.

We're so happy to hear you say all of that.

That's like such a nice wrap up to something that feels really, really scary.

I mean, you did the Googling, you get it.

But yeah, it was scary though, because when you're on the hunter jumper circuit, there is like, and I'm sure in other disciplines too, but like specifically for me in the hunter jumper world, it's like so taboo to pull shoes off.

And I don't understand why, because like, and every horse is different.

Some horses can go in shoes, some horses can't.

But like, it was, I just felt like it was so wrong leaving him and the setup that he was in.

And I just like, I just needed that, I just needed the push to get him out of it.

And like, a lot of it was just doing a lot of research to figure out what we can do in place of it, because I know pulling shoes off and not doing anything was not the right answer.

Like he obviously needed the cloud boots.

I do think like he'll need composites for a while, but just having the confidence to do it has been huge.

And like I have a friend now that's like Kelly.

She's just fantastic.

Shout out Kelly.

Kelly's a good friend.

She's wonderful.

You're in good hands.

Yeah.

She's been great because she like, talk about someone that just also like validates me.

Like she just supports and she's just so supportive.

And like she's equally as excited as I am.

And like finding those people that are truly passionate about like wanting to help you get the best horse you can is just, it's so key.

It's so key.

I mean, the amount of like just people that would just kind of try to make excuses for Thangie.

Like I said, like Thangie's a baby doing baby things.

Like if I kept following that and kept pushing him, I wouldn't have the horse I have today.

No, and you could potentially get very hurt.

Yeah, exactly.

He could have fallen on you.

He already did hurt himself twice.

Like good for you for persevering.

Because I know that that journey, I've been on it.

And it is so hard to feel like you don't have support.

So good for you for finding your people and doing the right by your horse.

Like I feel like we can end with a happy ending for something that I wasn't sure how this was gonna go.

So like, thank you so much for sharing your story.

I can't wait to see the picture you choose for the profile picture on Facebook.

Yes, I will make sure it's a good one.

— First Show Back: A Major Milestone for Emma & Finn

I always like to share her show picture because like that was a big milestone for me because I had taken him off the farm a couple of times like in between his having good moments.

But like I didn't really get the chance to show him and I just, for him, it was taking him really slow.

I never wanted to push this horse past what he felt comfortable doing because he just, he was very talented and he had a great personality and I didn't want to ruin that.

So this past summer, I guess last summer, I was able to actually horse show him for the first time and I got the best picture that I just, I love.

That's the picture for everyone.

Yeah, send it to us.

We can't wait.

I think it needs to be a goofy picture to show his goofy personality.

We can do a collage.

We can do all of it.

We can do both.

We can do a lot.

Yeah.

We can do it.

Taylor knows how to do that.

I don't, but.

I'll do my best.

I can't wait.

That's awesome.

Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Taylor, did you have any more questions?

I feel like we could go on forever.

I feel like you do still have so many questions, though, because he didn't match the typical presentation, and that's where I'm so put up.

Yeah, and that's the thing, too.

A lot of this polynoreitis, more horses have it than most people realize, because a lot of the time, it's EPM that starts, and then it's this autoimmune response, and these horses get polynoreitis after it.

I never will know what triggered his.

Because I'm sure it was EPM at some point that probably caused the polynoreitis.

I'll never know what caused it.

But for him, he was a natural typical case, because most times with EPM, it's a lot of hind end stuff.

He just, aside from having the issues getting up, he was never laying behind, and he just didn't have issues behind, he did that right front shoulder.

And so for him, it was a weird case.

And I just, I'll never truly understand why his presented the way that it did, but I mean, it was very strange.

I mean, like even in humans, though, Guillain-Barre and CIDP, which, so CIDP is chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy.

So it's kind of like the slow burn, more like insidious Guillain-Barre.

And Guillain-Barre is more, it's an autoimmune.

Acute.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So Guillain-Barre is more of an autoimmune attack where you have ascending, so it starts in the feet, paralysis that works its way up.

And they liken PNE to GBS.

And lately, I don't know, there's just been some...

It's not that.

That's not, yeah.

But it's, I don't know.

I mean, I could parse it out.

I have a lot of personal connections with that world and we'll do a whole other episode on that.

But that's just, it's so interesting.

Like, he didn't have any of the, like, the bladder.

He didn't have any incontinence or anything like that?

No, nothing.

And like, the crazy thing is, is like, sometimes I kind of question because, like, in the beginning, I could really feel him leaning into his left front, which is that negative pulmonary angle.

And like, I kind of question, you know, like, did the polyureitis cause that, like, high, low and negative pulmonary angle to begin with?

Because now that we've kind of gotten that polyureitis under, like, under wraps and that we know how to fix it at this point, now that I've done the feet thing and we're trying to get his feet balanced, it's like, I'm really curious to see what another year will bring with him, because will we even notice he has any feet issues at that point?

— Managing PNE Long-Term: Diet, Feet & Ongoing Care

That's, I kind of assumed that when you first were saying about his negative pulmonary angle, I kind of assumed that that was a symptom and you were getting ready to tell us that.

Like, it just sounds like he was a lot quieter about it than even other horses.

And this can be a pretty quiet disease.

So, I don't know, the whole thing is a little confusing, but obviously you have a good end to your story.

That's awesome.

I mean, that's really what matters, but.

Yeah, and it'll left with lots of questions.

I know.

No, I mean, it's just crazy.

The amount of knowledge that's being put out there now, like even four years ago, there's a Facebook group for EPM Horses.

And that's probably the best resource that I found for Polyneuritis, where they're actually having the discussion.

But like even four years ago, I don't remember that being part of that Facebook group.

So I'm solely relying on the vet.

And like now, now I can, I know his symptoms, now I know how to treat.

I mean, and I'm part of that group too.

Yeah.

That's the one I sent you this morning, Taylor.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah, they've got the good resources on there.

I don't have an EPM horse or a Polyneuritis horse or any kind of Neuritis horse I just have in the past.

And I think it's interesting.

I'm interested to see in like five, 10 years where this is and how much more we know.

Me too.

And if we'll change things in their young management, like how we vaccinate horses, how we feed horses as babies to see, I'm interested to see if there's a connection there.

Yeah.

Well, and that's the other thing.

And too, that I found out the hard way also, vaccines, the spring something and the spring vaccines for him, triggers a flare up.

So now I know I just put them on Lavamisole the week before and the week after.

And I just, I know to treat him, but fall vaccines, he's completely fine.

And so I try to do bare minimum.

Obviously, he's a show horse.

So leaving the farm, there are certain things like I feel comfortable with him having.

But it's like, I mean, that's just, that is one thing that I know was a trigger for him.

I don't understand the connection between spring versus fall.

Yeah, that's curious.

Yeah, I mean, I know it's like, I think one of them, I think it's a three-way or six-way.

I just follow my vet recommend.

Yeah.

I know that there's more in the spring.

So it's something in that vaccine that triggers him for some reason.

I wonder if he did them one at a time, if it would be less assault on his immune system.

So we've tried that and we're breaking it up, and it doesn't really make that big of a difference for him.

So I keep him together and I just treat him, so I'm not putting him through it twice.

Yeah.

I was going to say, because if that doesn't work, then he's just uncomfortable for longer.

Yeah, exactly.

I would love to know what specific part of that vaccine, because like I said, fall, he has no problems.

So it's something in that spring vaccine that seems to trigger him.

Now I know and I treat and it's fine, but yeah, I know a lot of people that just they have the same thing, that the vaccines trigger.

So they don't take their horses anywhere.

So they just they don't treat, they don't vaccinate for them.

So and that's great.

— Show Horse Life & Balancing Competitive Goals with Health

So if you can get away with doing that, like that's fantastic.

But like I said, being a show horse and leaving the farm, there's just certain things that I do for him, more comfortable with him having.

But it is a very strange correlation.

And I wish that I had more knowledge on it.

And I wish someone would do research on it.

Because there's just so little research about polyurethane and it's just the amount of forces that have it that we probably don't know is a lot.

Yeah.

I mean, the same in humans though.

Like there's so many humans that have like neurological, there's some type of pathology going on, but it's so insidious that they can just kind of keep functioning.

But that's actually kind of interesting that vaccines, he's still, I don't want to say like allowed to get vaccinated.

But I feel like if a human has Guillain-Barre, it would be contraindicated, like hardline.

Yeah, never again, never again.

So, but I mean, like you said, like there's not a lot of research on it.

It's still, you know, not saying it's nebulous, but it's still kind of this foreign entity, but.

Yeah, it's a work in progress.

Yeah, it is.

For sure.

Yeah, anyway that I can inform people about Polymeritis, like I am all about, like I am, I've never been the one that's been like hush, hush about my horse and his history, because I want to help other people and it needs to be out there.

Because like I said, there's so many horses that have this, that people think are probably having a relapse of EPM.

Literally, it's Polymeritis.

Because that's the biggest thing that they're saying is what causes Polymeritis.

That's what the most research has been pointed to.

I'd be curious to know if Lyme's disease, if that could trigger Polymeritis or other myrosis in the bacteria.

Yeah.

Like he didn't get sick or anything before the first big trip.

He wasn't sick.

Did he get vaccines right before that, do we say?

No.

No, we have no clue what triggered any of this.

It was like just one day he started tripping and that was just where it all started.

So it could be something as small as another horse he was exposed to was a little sick.

Yeah, like it could be anything.

It could be anything, right?

I mean, and he was to say too that when he came to my farm, like he didn't get exposed to EPM and that's where it started.

I mean, I didn't even know he had polyanitis for years after the first symptoms came on.

So it's like there are things that I will never be able to have answers to.

But I'm glad that I have a good end result and that we found something that works for him and that I'm able to sound and happy.

But yeah, I mean, it was just, it was a long process.

It really was.

And the emotions that comes with it, I mean, it's a rollercoaster.

Absolutely.

It really is.

Wow.

Emma, thank you so much for sharing.

This is a lot.

Thank you.

Like I'm a little, like my brain is blown right now.

It is a lot.

Yeah.

It is truly a lot.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, we wish you guys all the best.

My brain is still brapping about it.

I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Because I had such a picture of what you were going to say and what we were expecting.

Yep.

And now I'm like, well, this is a different beast, but.

Yes.

Thank you for sharing.

Of course.

Thank you so much for having me.

And I hope that this helps somebody else diagnose their horse that has things that they can't figure out.

— Hope for Other Owners: Finn's Story as a Diagnostic Map

So, absolutely.

Cheers to that.

That's the goal.

All right.

Thanks, girl.

Have a great night.

Thanks, you too.

Bye.

That was so good.

Whoa.

Holy shit.

That was so good.

And I have more questions than answers.

OK, we're going to keep wrapping.

That was nuts.

Yeah, that was crazy.

You need to scroll through that Facebook page for real.

I need to.

I need to, because now I'm like, I feel like I know so many horses that.

Uh-huh.

I hate this.

I hate.

This is like the worst part of learning new things is all the horses that flash behind your eyes that you think you could have helped or now you're thinking of that this could be it and you know how to help them and it's too late and, uh.

Geez, Lisa.

So what was the name of the drug that she put them on?

Lavamisol.

Is that something that you turned into?

Uh-huh, yeah.

You beautiful witch.

I don't know.

I just know a very little bit about a very lot of stuff.

I have so many feelings about EPM.

Yeah, same.

It's the same like Lyme.

Right?

Although, I did have a friend of mine, I would love to have her on too.

Her horse was diagnosed with chronic Lyme, and his main symptom was severe spookiness, and he couldn't be touched.

If the wind hit him, he would lose his mind.

Oh, same.

He would lose his mind, similar to what she was saying about touch.

Yeah, it's just everything is too much.

He's way over sensitized.

I've had, at my own job, I had patients like that, with Lyme patients that were just like, everything was too much.

Wow.

Huh.

I mean, I think it's...

I'm going to ask my Lyme expert about Lidansol for people and see if there's any other research that we could glean any information from.

I think that's a good idea.

I think I'm just really hung up on the nuances that did not fit the bill, and that just is such a...

Mm, I don't even know the word for it.

But, like, we get so stuck on just looking at textbook diagnostic criteria.

Yeah.

Well, hell, I mean, you overlooked that Leah had ulcers when she...

Yeah.

When everything else, you know, you tested for everything else.

I overlooked the fact that my horse's foot could just hurt, you know, like, and I have the exact same itis, you know?

Like, if I was going to the worst case, we always do that.

Like, we think it's going to look a certain way, but they're such big, complex creatures.

It could be so many things, and they don't have the language to tell us.

So, like, we're the ones without the words, because they're trying, and we're trying to listen, and it may not look how we think it should, but especially with something like this, there's not enough research to know.

And when she was talking about negative primer angles, you know, it's great that he was balanced as a baby, but, like, as you were saying about GBS being an ascending, his first issue that she ever had with this otherwise perfect horse was his feet weren't quite right.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it was ascending.

Yeah, it wasn't necessarily unsound but he was getting cast like he didn't have great control of the lower half of him and his feet weren't great.

Like he wasn't landing in an ideal way because he probably had neuropathy in his feet.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know.

I'm not him, but, like, if you work backwards, it does make sense.

It's just obviously not something you would think of first.

You'd be like, oh, my horse has negative palmar angles.

— Hope for Other Owners: Finn's Story as a Diagnostic Map

So, absolutely.

Cheers to that.

That's the goal.

All right.

Thanks, girl.

Have a great night.

Thanks, you too.

Bye.

That was so good.

Whoa.

Holy shit.

That was so good.

And I have more questions than answers.

OK, we're going to keep wrapping.

That was nuts.

Yeah, that was crazy.

You need to scroll through that Facebook page for real.

I need to.

I need to, because now I'm like, I feel like I know so many horses that.

Uh-huh.

I hate this.

I hate.

Geez, Lisa.

So what was the name of the drug that she put them on?

Lavamisol.

Is that something that you turned into?

Uh-huh, yeah.

You beautiful witch.

I don't know.

I just know a very little bit about a very lot of stuff.

I have so many feelings about EPM.

Yeah, same.

It's the same like Lyme.

Right?

Although, I did have a friend of mine, I would love to have her on too.

Her horse was diagnosed with chronic Lyme, and his main symptom was severe spookiness, and he couldn't be touched.

If the wind hit him, he would lose his mind.

Oh, same.

He would lose his mind, similar to what she was saying about touch.

Yeah, it's just everything is too much.

He's way over sensitized.

I've had, at my own job, I had patients like that, with Lyme patients that were just like, everything was too much.

Wow.

Huh.

I mean, I think it's...

I'm going to ask my Lyme expert about Lidansol for people and see if there's any other research that we could glean any information from.

I think that's a good idea.

I think I'm just really hung up on the nuances that did not fit the bill, and that just is such a...

Mm, I don't even know the word for it.

But, like, we get so stuck on just looking at textbook diagnostic criteria.

Yeah.

Well, hell, I mean, you overlooked that Leah had ulcers when she...

Yeah.

When everything else, you know, you tested for everything else.

I overlooked the fact that my horse's foot could just hurt, you know, like, and I have the exact same itis, you know?

Like, if I was going to the worst case, we always do that.

Like, we think it's going to look a certain way, but they're such big, complex creatures.

It could be so many things, and they don't have the language to tell us.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it was ascending.

Yeah, it wasn't necessarily unsound but he was getting cast like he didn't have great control of the lower half of him and his feet weren't great.

Like he wasn't landing in an ideal way because he probably had neuropathy in his feet.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know.

I'm not him, but, like, if you work backwards, it does make sense.

It's just obviously not something you would think of first.

You'd be like, oh, my horse has negative palmar angles.

E7: Welcome to the Thunderdome

Wed, 20 Aug 2025 04:15:50 GMT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

We are in the depths of summer here in the South. Kahlan and Taylor discuss some of the more commonly (and uncommonly) seen things that horses may be struggling with this time of year. From flies, to metabolic concerns, PPID, exercise, to preventative measures to support your equine friend through the depths of summer, AKA the thunderdome. Additional resources: Katy Watts' site on grass: safergrass.org Supportive article discussing role of exercise: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10931081/ Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoofcare Practitioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Equine Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook: The Red Mare Project Instagram: Wild_Hoof_Equine

— Welcome to the Thunderdome: Surviving Summer in the South

Surviving summer in the south is not for the faint of heart, especially when we have horses.

With summer comes an array of obstacles such as flies, sugars in the grass, the beginning of the ACTH rise, managing horses in extreme heat, all of it.

This extreme temperature swing we've had here in Georgia lately inspired us to unpack some of the things that can be major red flags for compromised horses and how we can avoid disaster.

It's management, management, management.

Hold on.

I can't reach.

What the fuck?

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

We are in the Thunderdome.

I swear, just like July and August and a little bit of September, we just white knuckle our way through.

I'm a little nervous.

I'm in a new state.

I don't know how long.

Is this going to last longer here?

Because the heat is last longer.

I'm scared.

I don't know.

Are you closer to the equator, actually, in Houston?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, just because, yeah, because in Georgia, we were in North Georgia, so yeah.

Okay.

I don't know how long.

I think you stay in summer.

Yeah, there's like a day of fall, and then it's really wet and cold for a month, and then it's just back to summer, which is great.

I mean, I love the heat.

I just don't love the risks that come with it.

I know.

And especially right now, this is when I feel like all the feet are just doing all the summer things, and that's just- Yeah, tell me.

All right, so there's a really big difference between summer feet and winter feet.

Now, if you're in an environment where the seasons are pretty much consistent, like if you're in South Florida, or if you're just close in general to the equator, you might not have that much variation.

But here in North Georgia, we do actually have true four seasons.

Fortunately, we don't go too deep into winter, but winter feet tend to do really, really well.

And then in the summer- I love winter feet.

Aren't they lovely?

They're so much easier.

They're just organized, they just have their shit together.

Yeah, they don't do much.

They don't, they just hang tight.

But the summer feet, those are the ones that tend to kind of pose a bit more of a challenge and maybe need a little bit more maintenance.

Okay, I know that's like a big topic.

So what- can you break it down for someone who doesn't necessarily know?

So some of the things that we're going to see in summer feet, you might see some changes in the foot in response to mud if we get excessive rain, some grass changes in the feet, which we're going to talk a lot about the impacts of grass.

We are just now starting in the seasonal rise for ACTH, which will impact that a little bit, so you might see some changes with that as well.

If you do have a horse that may be a little clinical in that world, the flies, I swear, are trying to kill us.

I never thought about that until I see every hoof care provider, well, in our circles, are really big cheerleaders for fly boots.

— Fly Management: Boots, Masks & the Case for Covering Up

Yes.

And I hate fly boots.

But I never thought about it.

I was always like, they're literally fine.

Like they're fine.

Yeah.

Like fly spray that might, because my horse, unless it's like a horse fly or something, he doesn't really get super annoyed with the flies.

So I was like, they're just going to trip on them.

They're going to get all of the pasture.

What's the big deal?

But now I get it.

Like it can help with pathology or prevent worsening of an issue, I guess.

Oh, totally.

Because you have to imagine if you have a horse that excessively stomps at flies, and you have two kinds of- Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Totally.

What happened?

Totally.

Because of their toes.

Sorry.

That's such a tad joke.

Well.

I'm leaving that in.

I'm not editing that out.

Even if you ask.

I'm leaving that in.

So I don't care.

So we have two types of fly stompers.

There's ones who smack their feet on the ground really hard, and then there's ones who just pick up their feet really fast and put them down gently.

So you have the one- Okay.

Right.

Which is, well, I don't know.

I've never thought about this in my life.

That's so cute.

Okay.

Well, it's weird.

This is my mare.

She doesn't stomp her feet.

She just picks them up really fast.

So her- They'll go away.

Yeah.

She's like, if I just pick it up fast, they'll go away, which is really nice.

But fly boots, they just help to reduce all the fly traffic on their feet.

So it reduces stomping.

And if you have a hard stomper, that's a lot of concussion on their legs.

So if you have a horse that might be getting a little idacy in the summertime, and we'll unpack this more in a minute.

But if you have a horse that's getting a little bit of idacy in there, and they're smacking their feet down, that's going to perpetuate the soreness.

Okay.

That's fair.

Right.

And yeah, it is important.

I just never thought about it, but maybe I should have.

Every time we talk, I have something new to be scared of.

I hate that I'm a nightmare now.

No.

I'm just well prepared.

Well prepared for all the scary stuff.

But yeah, so fly boots are a great way to just reduce the stomping.

And another thing I thought about was less sleep interruption.

Oh, that's such a good point.

Right?

No, that's good.

I've been struggling with that.

Like, Loki wasn't sleeping at the barn we just moved from.

Because the lights were on at night at the property.

And I didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, dude, I didn't know.

But then like a week in, the owner was like, yeah, this place is lit up like a Christmas tree.

And I was like, oh shit, no wonder why he's so dull and exhausted.

Oh my, you didn't tell me that.

That's a huge deal.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm also dull and exhausted because I've been stressed about it.

Wow.

I mean, that's like illegal now.

Like it shows they have to, it's lights out from noon, from midnight until like 5 a.m.

— Stabling & Turnout Strategies in Extreme Heat

I don't know.

Like he said it was safer for monitoring the horses.

And I was like, you don't need to like, but that's also his reason for keeping them in at night.

I mean, so, you know, we just have different philosophies and my horse said, this isn't for me.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

I'm like so hung up on that now.

Okay.

Yeah, I didn't realize I feel so bad.

He probably was like, he's so cranky.

He's exhausted.

And he's not a cranky, like he's so happy normally, but like a good quality sleep matters.

So reduce the flies, reduce the light.

They sleep best when they're, you know, able to do their regular herd behaviors, when they feel safe in the dark.

So we will talk more about that after we stop recording.

That is an off, off.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So you want to prevent stomping, and that's for horses that are like clinical and non-clinical, like it's just for comfort.

Yeah, because I mean, if you imagine they're just like sitting there stomping all day, they're gonna tear up their feet.

And that's usually why we see more chips this time of year.

True.

So, you know, I mean, if the diet is on point, chipping is going to be far less likely.

Yeah, I kind of forget that people struggle with that.

Yeah, if the diet is on point.

But that is a good thing to talk about.

Yeah, that's going to be far less likely.

So what else are you seeing like physically in the foot?

If they are having a grass response, we'll say this, or some type of, we'll say a sugar intake shift because of the grass.

You may see a little bit of a stretched white line.

If you see a big stretched white line, that's a big red flag.

And that's vet time.

But if your hoof care provider is noticing that, there may be a little thickening of the white line.

I'll say that.

That's a nicer way to put it, a thickening.

And a lot of folks will also start to see wall separation, where there's just little little crevices all along the white line.

If there's some wall separation in there, that can be from stomping.

And it can also just be from the grass response, from the sugar.

So is that always a metabolic response?

Not always.

It can be mechanical.

OK.

So like from improper movement or just like as their feet are growing in the cycle.

Like, I don't know enough about that.

Yes.

And yes.

Yeah.

So if their gate is doing something weird or if their loading is doing something weird, that can kind of create some space, you can say.

Weak spots?

Yes.

Let's go ahead and put it.

OK.

Or if they're on like a really, really dry, very arid, like if we're in one of our drought periods and they're also stomping at flies, sometimes little bits of sand can get like lodged in there and then it can just kind of...

You know, like little stuff.

Little stuff.

That feels like an abscess entryway. 100%.

OK.

Cool.

— Summer Threats: Bugs, Bots & What to Watch For

So just be afraid of everything.

Awesome.

So, stretch in a stretch-wide line while separation.

Can you talk about, you had, we, in our last conversation, we had talked a little bit about cringe effect, and I actually may send you pictures of Loki's feet later because I still don't, I'm not familiar with that.

Can you explain that?

So that kind of goes a little bit more into the world of, dare I say, laminitis.

So just as like a brief, before we get into that, so the lamina is essentially the soft tissue that holds the coffin bone in place, it suspends it in the capsule.

We're just going to leave it at that.

There's so much more to it than that, but we're going to leave it at that.

And they're little, they're essentially like little velcros, the lamina.

When those become inflamed, that's itis, that's your laminitis.

So since we're not veterinarians, we can't and don't diagnose that.

We just say if we notice anything that's like inflamed, we might just call it itis.

Scraminitis.

Scraminitis, because you shall not be named, right?

So if you have a horse that might have been experiencing like chronic, like low burn subclinical laminitis, where it's just like, you could almost not...

Something's not right.

Yeah, yeah.

Or like it's almost the equivalent of like, just a little headache for a long period of time.

It's a lot bigger than that.

But if I'm just trying to like, you know...

Story of my life, sister.

If we're just trying to like anthropomorphize it a little bit, it's just it's a slow burn inflammation.

That's your subclinical.

And if that persists for an extended period, you might see what's known as like a cringe effect, where the capsule itself actually starts to shrink down at the bottom.

So it's usually if you're looking at a foot, there's a tapering to where it creates not a flare, but it's a little bit larger at the bottom than it is at the hairline.

Or yeah, larger at the bottom.

Yeah.

So there's a small taper.

Okay, so a cringe effect, reverse that.

So it's wider at the hairline.

And then the actual footprint is smaller.

Does that make sense?

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So, but not necessarily just at the heel, like the entire, like, cause I'm picturing that as like when their heels get all collapsed.

They can, and they usually do cause they're contracted in that period, but almost envision like a donkey foot.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So that's chronic.

That's like a really loud example.

That's like a big one.

Yeah.

That's a loud example of it.

But if I see a foot that has event lines, if I see a foot that has what we call angry hairs at the coronary band.

So typically the hairline, the hair at the coronary band, it should lay nice and flat, almost like a 90s bowl cut.

Yeah, just relaxed.

Right?

We all love that kid from the 90s bowl cut.

For some reason, that was the thing for a while.

But then if there is angry hairs, that's when they start to like spray out, almost as if we, you guys remember when guys used to spike their hair?

— Sweet Itch & Insect Hypersensitivity in Horses

Yeah.

Like that.

So the spike- But it's just doing that.

It's just doing that.

Yeah.

So the spike is bad.

The spike means that there's a degree of inflammation in there.

That's so interesting.

You had taught me that a couple of months ago, and I was like, oh, that's crazy.

So it feels like there's like little, like one point here, one point here, one point for angry hairs, one point for maybe turning a little bit tighter, and all those can add up to pretty big warning signs, right?

In my book, yes.

And I think for most Hoofcare providers who are in our progressive practitioner world, these are all things that we really keep a close eye on, because you just mentioned like turning with less confidence.

And you were the one that pointed that out to me, that was like the way that just watching them turn and watching their neck.

I remember you mentioned that and I was like, that's...

Yes.

They like brace in a, they brace.

Like, you know, if you're watching a horse, especially in slow motion, if you're watching them walk really confident and relaxed, the bottom of their neck, like almost before their chest is like squishy.

And when they're in that subclinical discomfort, they brace right there, like almost right at their boobies.

They brace right there for the pain.

And they just kind of, it's just so much less fluid.

And it's really like, my horse has a super long body and a long neck.

And so it's really easy to see those little tiny movements, a shorter, like, cobbier type.

You may not notice it as much.

But like, especially horses, like non-trotting horses, like gated horses that are just kind of like noodly, you can really tell.

That's such a good point to bring up the difference in size.

Like, if you're watching a pony do it, it might be, it's gonna be much more subtle as opposed to a really long skeleton horse.

Yeah, because they're already like, choppier in general.

But a horse that kind of moves like a snake normally, all of a sudden they're bracing in their armpits or in their neck.

That's super obvious.

That's a good thing to bring, that's a good thing to mention.

Oh, oh, oh.

No, I have something super important that I want to talk about from personal experience, professional experience.

And I want to, I want Taylor to kind of touch on it.

If your horse is never sore after a trim, and then all of a sudden they walk off lame from a trim, please don't blame your farrier.

Communicate with them and tell them something's different.

They're not blaming your horse.

I promise you, I mean, maybe there's one or two of them out there.

I don't know them, but for the most part, they're not psychopaths that are coming to hurt your horse and make them lame.

— Hoof Care in Summer: Farrier Visits & Seasonal Changes

They're not like obsessed with trimming toes off.

I promise.

I promise you they're not.

So communicate, because I know like from personal experience, not being a hoof care professional, literally one or two swipes of a rasp can make the difference in a horse that is subclinical.

And that's super, super valuable information for both you and your farrier.

I love you so much.

Thank you.

That is such a good point.

And that's like, this is kind of the big time of year, July and August, where just like what Kahlan said, like even just like the swipes of the rasp, if you have a foot that's already compromised, just those vibrations can be enough to tip the scale.

And it's like, just talk to us.

If that happens, just like what you said, like that is essential information, because that can tell us like, okay, well, guess what?

It's August 17th, and your horse got sore.

Guess what we're right on the bridge of?

Yeah, like we're gonna need, this is starting to test for Cushing's time.

Like, we're in the natural seasonal rise of ACTH.

And if a horse is gonna be triggered, even if they're not necessarily metabolic, they don't have, you know, a lot of these red flags, if they have any chink in their armor, it's gonna show now.

Exactly, exactly.

So if you have a horse that's otherwise controlled, and we'll get back to what we mean by controlled in a minute, but if you have a horse that's controlled and then all of a sudden, your horse has been wonderful for the past, like, what, 10 months, and then now there's one trim that tips the scale, you need to talk to your fair, you need to talk to your hoof care provider, because they're immediately, that can definitely be some really helpful clinical information to where you can get ahead of something that can be a lot scarier.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, right now, I've been doing Loki's Feet, and I count every swipe.

Oh, bless it.

So, love that.

I know that's so silly.

No, it's not.

Because I don't, I may not know the difference.

So, like, if I say, okay, I always do Mondays.

So, this Monday, I did 15 swipes, and they looked amazing, they looked perfect, and I did a really good job.

And then the next time I do 15, and he's like, ooh, spicy.

I'm going to know the difference.

Like, I'm going to know, I won't question myself, and be like, oh, did I take too much?

Because I'm not a professional.

So, did I do it wrong?

I can know certainly that I didn't do something different.

There's another factor that's causing an issue, which, thank God, knock on wood, it's been going really well.

I think that's such a great idea to count the swipes of your ass.

And I remember even, like, when I first started doing, like, direct gluing, I would do the same thing, where I would count the amount of pumps of glue that I would put for the application for balance and equivalency.

— Glue-On Shoes, Hoof Hardeners & Summer Hoof Management

And that was always, like, a really helpful tool.

So that's a great idea that you're doing that.

And then, no, that's good.

I love that.

And, like, then you can just better know how to support him.

That's it.

Yeah, and just get crazier and crazier every day.

So, actually, before we move on to the big girl stuff, I didn't want to mention mud, too, because I just moved my horse two days ago to, like, the muddiest place on the planet, and I'm not actually that worried about it.

But I do want you to talk about, like, risks of mud, things that you're seeing in the feet that are different because of mud, because I want to know personally.

I hate mud.

That's pretty middle of my feelings on it.

I hate it.

So the wet, dry, wet, dry, wet, dry, or chronic wet is probably one of the most harmful things to their feet.

And it just, I've watched it, thin soles.

That scares me.

It's not great, but he's good.

Don't worry, you're so on top of everything, he's good.

But I've watched mud, thin soles.

And it's really interesting because I can, if I have a foot that comes in and it grew an excessive amount of bar, like really tall bar, and I...

Uh-huh, trying to get away from the mud.

It's, yeah.

So the bar is essentially building an extra support to lift the foot out of the mud, which sounds really weird, but that's what it's doing.

So if I have a foot that comes in and it has more bar than usual and it's like, oh, well no, it's been raining excessively, there you go.

Mm-hmm, that's why.

Yeah.

That's a little scary.

The best thing you can do for your horse's feet is to keep them dry.

There are moments where it's appropriate to have a little bit of softening, but for the most part, the rule is keep them dry.

But not just chronic mushiness.

Yeah.

If you do need a little bit of variety, if you're in a really arid area or if you're in a deep drought, overflow the water trough so you have that little mud that they can just soften a little bit.

A little bit of squish, yeah.

That's perfect, yeah.

Yeah.

I guess that's easy for us to say because we're in the south and the southeast.

I'm in the east of my state, like right near the Gulf of whatever you want to call it.

We get a lot of wetness.

Yeah.

It is moist in Georgia.

It is goopy and wet and winter is wet.

I noticed a difference this week because it was raining so much this week, from last week when my actual swipes were so much easier.

Yeah.

I was like, oh shit, like, whoa, his foot is so soft.

I normally wouldn't notice it other than like, okay, yes, it's wet.

It's like physically wet when I'm holding it, but like I can feel the softness.

Yeah.

Trims.

Which is a little startling.

Trims are much better.

And I bet you're going through rasps too.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Your operating cost goes up a little bit.

I will say I do appreciate the grinder when their feet are that hard.

— Hard vs. Soft Feet: What Summer Does to the Hoof

Manual trims on soft feet are delightful.

Yeah.

But hard, nice and easy.

Yeah.

All right.

So let's get into the why.

The scary stuff.

Yeah.

Let's get into the why.

So we talked about grass.

We talked to, or we talked about mud.

We need to talk about grass.

Mud, we don't like.

Get them off mud.

Oh, actually, this is a good time to mention for mud control.

Have you seen those mud control maps?

Oh, like the grids?

Yes.

Yes, they're amazing.

Oh, I have a client that got them, and it is just, the difference is unbelievable.

Really?

Okay, so there's, it's kind of like that, where I just moved in the driveway.

I think they're mostly using it to keep the gravel from floating away, because we're like 100 yards from a bayou.

But they're really cool, and it's like, it keeps the whole area really flat, like very even throughout.

So I imagine that's like an expensive thing to do.

But if you own your own property, it may be worth looking into.

They're pretty cool.

I will say, everyone I know who's gotten them, or at least done it like in a small area, it's worth every penny.

Because once you're traipsing through that stuff in and out constantly, like, it's fatigue.

I mean, it is.

Well, and like, as someone with tendonitis and a horse with tendonitis, potentially, we don't really know, it is a lot of work on your feet and your ankles to try to like stabilize in that slippery mud.

So it makes it easier on them, like in every way.

Oh yeah.

And then there's skin.

Oh, we could go on about this.

Yeah.

Anyway, so the topic of the conversation is fuck mud.

Fuck mud.

Now we can, let's move on to the scary stuff.

So if you're seeing these things, not only do you need to involve your failure, but you may need to involve a nutritionist or a veterinarian.

Yeah.

Or if you're really stuck, if your environment, not or, and, and, if your environment is really problematic, you may need to look into the, perhaps like a horticulture, a grading company, things like that.

Just if you need a facelift on your property, sometimes it's worth it.

I know it's an expense, but in the long run, you will be so grateful, because all the bills- You'll save on vet bills, for sure.

Yeah, and hoof care.

Yeah.

It feels like really counter, counter to what we want, but I'm sorry, kids, you can't have, for the most part, having that lush, beautiful meadow pasture is not, is not it.

It's just not it.

Like, there is nothing sexier than a dry lot farm.

Or track.

Or a track.

But yeah, grass too, very enthusiastic.

Thumbs down.

Let's talk about grass.

So the reason that right now, we call it the Thunderdome is not just because of the natural hormonal rise, it's because the grass actually is behaving a little bit differently because of the heat.

So the longer, I'm going to make it real simple.

Just remember this, the longer the grass is exposed to the sun, the higher in sugar it is.

— Grass & Sugar: The Rule About Sun Exposure

Boom.

Easy peasy.

So, in an ideal world, that means all our horses go out in the middle of the night and come in around mimosa time at brunch.

The best time.

Yeah, right?

You have two mimosas go get your horse.

And they either go on to a dry lot or they, you know, if they are clinical, maybe they have to go into a stall, which I really don't prefer, but your safest time for grass is when it's sleeping, because it's really not sleeping.

So usually like in the evening, I just call it the witching hour, which technically is, it's three o'clock, right?

Three o'clock in the morning.

Three a.m.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the witching hour.

So I love that our timestamps are the witching hour and brunch or like mimosa 30.

Yeah.

Mimosa 30, it's easy to remember.

You know?

I don't even like mimosas, but it's just like the novelty, the idea of like, I know, I know.

It's so much sugar for me, which is ironic.

It's so much sugar.

Being so for real right now, girl.

I know.

I'm so fragile to sugar.

I swear.

I'm.

Well, you can't exactly have joint soreness because you need to do your job.

So I get it.

Man.

I can afford a little bit of knee pain after some mimosas.

You got to treat me like a little metabolic at risk pony.

That's me.

She's just a cob.

I'm just a cob.

Oh, shit.

Okay.

So say we don't have that option because I recognize, in the real world, most people don't own their own farm.

Most of the time, people are boarding and they can't get their horse out at 2 AM or 3 AM and then bring them in at brunch 30.

It's not an option.

Some options that you have if you're trying to get your horse off the grass, even if it's just for an experiment.

Like even if you're a paranoid helicopter mom, you see your horse turned a little tight one day and you just want to make sure that it's not the grass, good for you, first of all.

But a muzzle is going to be your best friend.

Yes.

A dry lot with, if they're clinical soaked hay, if they're not, then just good quality tested hay is fine.

For those hours of the day, they're also probably going to thank you because then they're not out during the heat of the day, which can be beneficial for some.

Yeah, I mean, I myself have a pink nosed boy and I really, like, he hates sunscreen, but I hate skin cancer more.

So, you know, bringing them in, in the heat of the day, letting them out once it starts to cool down, may be your best option.

Can you talk a little bit about your hay soaking protocol?

And also, since you mentioned, I would love to also touch on sunburn.

I would love to hear your protocols on both of those.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to it.

Just, yeah, there's just some, like, management stuff in summer that takes a whole team.

So, for soaking hay, if you have a pathological horse, you have a laminitic horse or a PPID horse that you're just being extra good about their management or a horse that has a history, first of all, we want you to be on, we want you to be using tested hay.

— Hay Soaking: When, Why & How to Do It Right

Talk to a nutritionist.

I'm always going to plug that.

But if that's not an option, or in the meantime, what you can do is weight your hay.

Most horses need 1.5 to 2% of their body weight in forage every day.

So, weigh your hay, feed your pony.

If they're not trying to lose weight, then you can, I like horses to have hay all the time.

So, I don't really, like, right now, my horse can, he needs to gain a little bit of weight, so I'm not weighing his hay.

I'm just making sure he always has it.

Cool, cool.

But for soaking, if you're trying to get those water-soluble carbohydrates out and bring the sugar down in whatever hay you are using, it's super easy.

Just get a giant bucket from Tractor Supply, like a muck bucket.

Put your hay in a small hole hay net.

Also, those are a pain in the ass, but you got to do it.

If you don't have a lot of time, because we're horse people and we usually don't, we're usually running around late for something.

Use hot water.

Always.

Always late for something.

Always.

Half an hour in hot, hot water is the quicker protocol, but just make sure it's super, super important before you actually hang it and give it to your horse.

It absolutely must be rinsed off.

Shake it out, like just fluff it.

Make sure it's nice and rinsed.

And then that water that you just had it soaking in, that's now Hummingbird food, okay?

That's like pure sugar.

That is the stuff that you tried to get out.

So don't go toss it in the pasture.

Don't go put it in the water trough.

Don't go, make sure it's not accessible to your horse.

Have you, no, it's a poke fun.

Have you had someone feed it to a horse?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, not cute, not cute.

Don't reuse it.

Don't make it accessible to animals.

Don't go pour it on the grass where the horses then are grazing all day.

No, no, just please God, don't do that.

If you don't have hot water or you just are going to be at the barn for a while and you have the time, cold water is perfectly fine.

It's just the same protocol.

It's longer, so you just do at least an hour, rinse it off, hang it, throw the water away.

Gorgeous.

Now you've made diet make.

Gorgeous.

You picked out the calories.

Yeah, and then now it's less dusty too, which is cool, because let's be real, hay can be dusty.

Oh, that's great.

And then what was the other thing you asked?

Skin.

Oh, sunburn.

Yeah.

So.

I know.

Okay.

It's close to home.

Yeah, it's really hard.

Thank God she says that, and it's because I have a pink horse, not because I have a skin cancer horse.

I do everything I can to prevent it.

If you have a horse with heterochromia, one blue eye, one brown, or just a blue eyed horse, unless they have eyeliner, like black eyeliner around their whole eye, they are, that skin is a lot more sensitive.

— Sun Sensitivity: Blue Eyes, Pink Skin & UV Protection

So they can get sunburn there.

They can turn into skin cancer.

Every single time we are exposed to the sun, it is damaging to our skin.

I like to tan, but it's not really good for you.

So if you have a horse that, even if they're not dealing with any hoof issues, if you do want to be super extra careful, like you have a Perlino or even just a horse, like older horses that have little white noses too, if you were very concerned, the best thing you can do is get them out of the sun.

So the protocol is pretty much the same from the witching hour to Mimosa 30, if you want to memorize it that way.

So it's the same as the grass.

If not, they make a lot of really good quality UV protecting fly masks.

If your horse is cool and not a douche, then we'll leave it on.

I said Slurkey won't keep his clothes on.

Okay, so I own seven fly masks.

I have a system.

I own seven fly masks.

I've had him his entire life.

My system is I own seven of them because every day he takes one off and hides it, or he'll hang it on the fence.

If it's not a hot fence, which I don't like hot fences, he'll actually find a place to hang it so it's not on the ground, which is very considerate, very sweet.

That's thoughtful.

I just let him hang up his clothes, and on the last day of the week that I'm there, I collect all of them, clean them off, and put them back on.

He doesn't like the ones...

Thank you.

He doesn't like the ones with ears, and he doesn't like the ones with a nose, which is a problem because his nose is pink.

So here we are talking about horses that are at risk for skin cancer, little pink noses.

Absolutely, especially pink noses on otherwise fleabit gray horses.

They are the most likely to get skin cancer.

I'll see if I can find a paper for it.

That's just a fact that I know.

I don't know why.

I don't know the research behind it, but we can look it up because it's a pretty well-established thing.

I'm pretty sure.

We'll look it up.

There's actually...

Ukeel, I never know how to say it.

I saw Ukeel.

Ukeel.

But I've heard Ukeel.

Ukeel is cute.

I know someone who says Ukelele.

They have a cool product that's called Grey Horse Defense.

I actually was going to look into it because I would imagine that Grey Horse Defense is just a bunch of antioxidants that help defend against DNA damage.

That feels like it makes sense.

So I'm actually, when we get off the phone or when we're done recording, I'm going to look that up because that may be a really good option.

No, we're doing it right now in real time.

I'm not going to edit it out because this is cool.

Okay, awesome.

So while she types, the other thing that's super important is zinc oxide, topical zinc oxide, Desitin, baby butt cream, Boudreaux's butt paste, all those things.

It has to be at least 20 percent, otherwise you're wasting your money.

— Zinc Oxide & Sunscreen: What Actually Works on Horses

Desitin brand, I know is 40 percent, but there's also one that I get on Amazon that's 20 percent, and it doesn't have a scent, so he tolerates it much better.

Slather it all over their pink spots.

It protects against the sun.

It can heal, it heals really well, actually, sunburn.

So like if they're starting to get like bubblies or any kind of like scabies, it'll soften that up, protect from the sun, and it's super, super soothing.

So they hate it, but that is my weapon against skin cancer.

Gorgeous.

Okay, so we have, oh, go ahead.

Don't put, I forgot, don't put human sunscreen on them, please.

Because you have to reapply like every 30 minutes for it to be affected and that's not realistic.

And then when you do go to reapply it, it stains.

If you've ever been at the pool too long, forgot to reapply sunscreen if you're a Taylor bear skinned person.

When you go to reapply it, it hurts like hell.

It's really spicy.

So do that thick zinc oxide goop and you're good to go.

I had one client who did, it was baby sunscreen, which I'm assuming would be the same.

It's probably just zinc oxide.

Probably so.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I found it.

It's not, it's from, it's called Smart Gray.

So it's from SmartPak, change your name to SmartEquine.

And I swear, it's just like Rolex, when Rolex renamed to like Land Rover, like no one's going to call it SmartEquine.

No one's going to call it that.

It's just dead.

It's so true.

Okay, no, I know what Ukelele makes one, but read me what's in the other one, because I don't know about it.

Let's talk.

All right, so yeah, it's the same thing.

It's your horse's large, your skin is the horse.

Oh my God, Taylor can't read.

Okay, first, it's for skin.

It's just thin.

Jesus Christmas, Taylor.

Okay, so let's see.

Bitter melon extract, it has spirulina.

Cool.

Green tea extract.

Spirulina.

Yeah.

Oh, actually, let's do a quick plug for spirulina.

If your horse is itchy in the summer, 40,000 milligrams of spirulina has been like the best thing ever for summer itchy.

And so we've been like- It made a huge difference with her.

Holy moly.

Like her brain came back online.

I think she was so itchy she couldn't think.

Girl, that's how I am.

Okay, so it looks like they used to make gray horse defense and now they don't.

But I know that Ukeel started selling all their products on SmartPak.

So maybe they just moved over to a SmartPak product.

Yeah.

But yes, she was- I mean, I feel that, Leah.

When I'm itchy, John makes me feel like a crackhead because he's like, you are insane.

Like, you have to sit on your hands.

You can't do this.

Because I will scratch my skin off.

It's miserable.

And I am not friendly.

Oh, bless you.

Yeah, I think we all gotta get on some spirulina.

But yeah, it's got green tea extract, astral real astathaxin.

— Supplements for UV Protection & Skin Support

Did I just say that right?

Astaxanthin.

What is that?

It is another antioxidant.

I think it's naturally found in shrimp.

Interesting.

Let me.

That's like the, is that you find it most in nature, I believe.

Okay.

It's got glutamine in it, which we love.

Oh, glutamine.

Yeah, glutamine is what's up.

And then astragalus.

Cool.

Did I say that right?

Oh, look at the hooked on phonics coming in.

All right.

Cool.

Yeah.

So if you have a gray horse or just, I guess anything that's sensitive to the sun, is that what you're suggesting?

Yeah.

And honestly, I'm not plugging this.

I mean, I am on record, but I don't know this forever, for real, for real.

But I'm going to look into that product and see if the antioxidant doses are high enough to be just used as a good overall antioxidant for Thunderdome time.

It might be, man.

Because that was another thing.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

That's so much easier than trying to get individual ones to keep your horse comfortable.

Antioxidants are some of your greatest defense against the damage that's happening at this time of year.

Yeah.

Without it being an anti-inflammatory, they're actually calming down that stress of free radicals.

Free radicals are basically toddlers when they need a Snickers.

They're unstable molecules that cause inflammation by just kind of bouncing around and doing cell damage.

They're missing an electron.

So that's why I say they're like someone that has Snickers.

What antioxidants do is come in and they donate an electron to those unstable molecules.

They say, hey, hey, hey, calm down.

Stop punching holes in the walls.

Here's an electron.

Chill the hell out.

Everything's going to be okay.

Just give it a Snickers.

Yeah.

You're not you when you're hungry.

You're a free radical when you're hungry.

That is excellent.

You're not you when you're hungry.

Yeah.

When they're getting that extra damage from lots of sugar or from the sun, from all the things that we're experiencing right now in the Thunderdome, instead of reaching for pharmaceuticals, just bump up their nutrition profile with a cocktail of antioxidants, and you're going to really be making a huge difference.

I mean, with resveratrol in particular, we lean on it heavily.

Nutrition consultants and farriers, that's our favorite treat for this time of year, from August to mid-October, late October.

That's a must-have.

It makes a huge difference.

I have quite a few horses too, like leaning on resveratrol, because I'll have some that just have grass sensitivity, and I think this is a really good time to plug in.

Like, you can have a horse with perfect labs, absolutely perfect labs, and they are still grass-sensitive.

Breach, I mean, me.

Yeah.

Breach.

Yeah.

Loki's numbers were completely fine, but he's so sensitive.

He's so grass-sensitive.

Can't do it.

He can have some bites as a treat if we're exercising, but other than that, like, you just can't do it.

— Muzzles, Grazing & Managing the Metabolic Horse

Sorry, kids.

Like, I know as horse girls, we picture our horses running through a field, fat, grazing on, like, the world's prettiest grass, but for most people, that's not reality.

Yeah.

And that's where, like, Resveratrol comes in and is so, so helpful to them.

And I feel like everyone says it so differently.

Well, you'd be saying that.

Gioculin.

And you say it.

How do you say it?

Gioculin.

You say it so nice.

So if you, and I'm going to cheat.

I'm going to out myself right now.

If you go to Mad Barn, which is, like, the cheapest, high-quality dose, like, the scoop is the dose for horses, they actually tell you how to say it.

Oh, they do?

Yeah.

Tomato, tomato.

Who are you?

Tomato, potato.

We don't need to get too technical.

You guys know.

Everyone just says J-Urb anyway, but.

The first time, you and I were working on a Foundered Horse case together.

Yeah.

And you had said that, and I was like, what the fuck is she, what?

I didn't know, I'd never heard anyone call it that before.

Oh, God.

And I was like, who?

J-Who?

And then I saw your write-up, and I was like, oh shit, juggling, okay, got it, got it, got it.

It's like when you hear someone say respiratory instead of respiratory, and you're like, is there a whole other system?

Respiratory disease.

It's cervical, it's not cervical.

Taking us back to what we do for maintenance.

So we said we love dry lots, we love testing and soaking our hay, resveratrol, J-Urb.

Another thing that's a huge thing that's going to be a significant help, not letting your horse get overweight, but talk to me about- Prehab, prehab, prehab.

Talk to me.

Say it.

Let's go, Mr.

Taylor.

I'm going to get it.

I'm going to put this on your headstone.

You die.

I'll fight your husband over it.

Prehab is better than rehab.

Oh, it's already there.

He won't challenge.

It's already there.

Yeah, it's in the will.

It's in the will.

What we mean by that is the best thing that you can do is prevent this from happening.

Obviously, genetics time, your horse's history, there's no perfect situation, but exercise makes a huge difference, you guys.

I think the study that I like to look back on was with nine horses, no, it was seven horses, seven mares, and they did tests on their insulin before and after a regimen of exercise for a certain amount of days.

It helps so much.

I'm not going to quote it because I'm not going to be one of those people that spreads misinformation.

We're just going to link it.

You can read it because I actually think Mad Barn has the full thing.

You don't have to pay for it because I know I've read the whole thing.

Nine days after they concluded the study and stopped the exercise program, their insulin spiked right back up.

That's insane that it's that fast.

Then the impact of exercise.

Yeah.

It's not just for weight management, which obviously that is a very obvious important thing.

— Exercise & Metabolism: More Than Just Weight Management

But if horses are using what we're feeding them, their hormones are going to be more balanced.

Don't forget insulin is a hormone.

Yeah.

They're going to become more sensitive to insulin because they're going to be needing to use what's going through their system to be able to maintain that level of movement.

And this is also another good time to mention, if you do have a horse that's overweight and you are trying to get them to lose weight, please do not do calorie restriction to the point of starving.

I've seen so many people just put a horse in a dry lot and just leave them.

And I'm like, has anyone seen The Biggest Loser and What Happened to These People Metabolically?

We're actually watching the docu- I've never seen it.

Oh my God.

They're doing a docu-series right now on Netflix because apparently that's all we watch are documentaries.

But it's about what happened to these people metabolically afterwards.

If you do crash dieting, you trash your metabolism.

And it's not genuine loss.

No.

It's bad news bears.

Don't do it.

It's bad.

It's bad news bears.

Like, it feels like an obvious thing to say, but you need food to survive.

You need nutrients.

Just a little bit.

Like movement and prevention is much better than starving a horse because I promise you, it'll take until you're actually damaging their body for them to even lose the weight.

You're going to starve them almost to death and they're still going to be fat.

That's just how it works.

Horses are thrifty creatures.

We're getting into thrifty season of all things.

Like this is the time the hormones that are being released at this time that are peak for the season, which makes it so scary, is some of the important things that help wild horses survive.

It helps them trigger their adrenal system to grow coats, to become more thrifty with the less calories because in the winter, in the wild, horses are now foraging on less.

So you're literally, you're working against their evolution, their anatomy to be able to lose weight.

They're going to be, they're going to have a harder time losing weight now when they need to.

So you're, add it to your toolbox of everything we just gave you.

Exercise is huge.

Even if it's like 30 minutes, you do your 10 minute warm up, you trot for 15 minutes.

Wait, I'm going to lose my math here.

Hold on, five minutes.

Wait.

The point is, let's do at least 20 minutes of straight trotting.

Please don't make me do simple math.

Or you could even do two minutes walk.

You could do essentially four, five minute trot sets or four minute trot sets with walk breaks in between.

If you have a horse that isn't fit, even just like an hour of walk is so beneficial.

Absolutely.

That's not a walk in grace for five minutes.

That's a purposeful walk with purpose, catwalk.

— The Purposeful Walk: Why Low-Intensity Movement Matters

Yep.

Catwalk.

Yeah.

March.

Go for it.

Walking is the greatest of the gates.

Truly, when they say walk is the king of the gates, it is so true.

I've gotten more done physically for him, not just strength training, but metabolic management by walking.

Horses are meant to walk, make them walk.

And honestly, it's good for you too.

Bitch, move.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And even- We went on a walk yesterday.

Oh, that's right.

That's right.

You guys were checking out the new spot.

I can't wait to hear more about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

The walks are so good.

Even if it's like, you know, in the dead of winter and the arena's frozen and like, you can't do anything, you can do all the things at a walk with the least amount of concussion on that.

And you can still do a- Absolutely.

Workout.

Yeah.

So- Absolutely.

And if you don't have a horse that's like foot-sensitive and you have, you know, like any kind of quality driveway or barnyard, that's a valuable real estate, baby. 100%.

Oh, yeah.

I love it because the varied terrain, usually there's like, especially where, you know, where we come from is Georgia, usually there's like small hills, little slopes.

That's like, that's the cream of the crop.

I'll take that over a manicured arena any day.

Oh, yeah.

Variety is best.

Absolutely.

It is the spice of life.

So keep them moving.

Responsible exercise.

Let's call it responsible exercise.

Yes, responsible exercise.

Diet control.

And just to kind of circle back to, we are at the start, well, I think we're pretty much in the seasonal rise right now.

Like we're at the beginning.

We're in that, yeah.

Yeah, we're in it.

So if you have a horse who is controlled, meaning their diet is controlled, they do get exercise.

They have limited access to grass.

And all of a sudden, now they're starting to get footy.

This may be a time to reach out to your vet and have a conversation about maybe it's time to look at PPID, which is your Cushing's.

One in five over the age of 15 are going to develop PPID, which is bananas.

We have a whole tin foil hat lecture series on that.

So get ready for it.

Oh, yeah.

We actually have been avoiding it because we don't know where to even start.

We have so much to say, and it's going to have to be multiple episodes because this is a big girl topic.

I think it would be one of those topics where it would divide the audiences to where the amount of people we would gain is also the amount of people that we would lose.

Yeah, that's right.

Anyway, so any of those things, that is the time to hang up with us and call your vet.

Yeah.

Because I feel like it would be unlikely that your farrier wouldn't notice or say something because most competent farriers are pretty loud about Cushing's testing.

But it is really important and it has to be done right.

That's kind of a hard thing to test.

I know that we just said like 20 minutes ago that they can have normal numbers and symptoms.

— ACTH Rise & Fall Testing: Why Once a Year Isn't Enough

But I am a big proponent for testing once a year.

Me too.

I mean, now is the time that you're most likely to get the most accurate results.

Because this is the time where if there's an issue, it's going to show in the blood work.

But it's definitely worth doing.

It's actually not, as far as vet bills go, it's not the worst thing in the world.

No.

ACTH baseline should be, I think, maybe 60, which is suitable for this time of year and the seasonal rise.

Dr.

Kellan, with the ECIR group, advocates for the TRH stim in the spring.

And I think that one, I think the last time I did the TRH stim was like 150, maybe.

Does that sound right?

That feels right.

Somewhere in there.

Yeah.

I just did it in the spring.

I can actually...

Yeah.

RADS and labs.

Yeah.

Do those once a year.

Oh, there was one other thing I was going to mention on that.

Oh, that's what it was.

Okay.

Sorry.

No, going back to like not...

Just because a horse isn't like...

Their labs aren't clinical doesn't mean that they're presenting as clinical.

Alicia Harlov did an episode on her podcast, and it was a guest case study episode, and she had someone come on who...

The horse was...

He was young.

I think he was under 10, and...

Oh, I know what you're talking about.

This was like three episodes ago or four episodes ago?

Yes, and this horse was not...

He was clearly cushionoid, but the numbers were completely within range.

And now, I think...

On paper, he was fine.

Yeah, but he's symptomatic.

And I think he's on two milligrams, or was it five?

Like, it was a big number that was like...

It was stupid.

I feel like it was...

Five sounds right, because it was like...

I remember gasping audibly in my car.

Same.

Yeah, I was like, Jesus, Christmas.

That's a lot, especially for a horse whose numbers are, like...

Clean.

Yeah.

So...

Well, and for a young horse.

Yeah.

I mean, I've had a couple cases where their ACTH has been completely within normal limits, but the vet has opted to put them on pergolide, just because it does have hyperinsulinic support, and it does help tremendously.

So...

I mean, I did it last year around this time because I couldn't get him off grass and he was not stable.

Now, okay, wait.

Hold on, bitches.

That is not us advocating for you doing an experiment without your vet.

Thank you so much.

Yes, we were just kind of...

Yeah.

Just to cover our own...

Yeah.

We're just talking to it now.

Call your vet.

Call your farrier.

Call your vet.

Don't be doing anything crazy.

Don't be like, oh, hey, barn friend, you have those little pink pills.

Can I borrow a couple?

No, fucking do that.

Don't do that.

No, no, no.

These are all get...

These are all vet-guided cases that we are referring to.

Yes.

These are all...

The vets made these recommendations.

And actually, let's do one thing while we're talking about pergolide.

— Pergolide: Dosing, Storage & Seasonal Adjustments

We'll talk about it more.

But the care of it, the maintenance of it.

So just in case, just in case.

And this is totally off topic, but this is a moment for us to share it.

So percent comes in these little nitrogen packets.

They're individually wrapped.

The second you take them out of the packet, they start to degrade.

So just be really cautious to not meal prep, or when you take it out, you have to feed it immediately.

Or what I'll have, what I'll like, not me.

I've seen vets recommend this and I thought this was great.

So now I just share it with others.

If you have them on a half tab, what you can do is open it, break it in half, feed the half, wrap the other half up in the tin foil, and then I put it in Sunday through Saturday pill case, and just put it in the next day.

Old lady pill case.

The old lady one, and I always get a black one as well, and I keep them in a dark hidden place.

Nice protected.

And that seems to work really well.

So just something to be aware of that they do start to degrade.

Not everyone reads the pamphlet.

There's a reason that drugs come with a huge ass pamphlet.

The amount of people that I've come to, and you know when you get to a case and you're like, oh, how much pergoli do they get just from looking at them?

And then they tell me, and I'm like, can I see what you do?

And this may be overstepping, this is more vet territory, but I don't think it's inappropriate.

As a friend.

Yeah, I don't think it's inappropriate for me to be like, hey, maybe try using this as a dispensing.

Well, no, because vets often don't think to mention that.

They may not, especially if they are intending to titrate up the patient, they may titrate too high because they're not actually getting what they think they're getting.

Like, I've done that myself.

I was managing boarded horses at the time and I've done that myself because I didn't know better.

It's good to say.

And no one's going to be mad at you because you're saving the money.

I know.

That's just expensive.

If they're basically throwing it away, it's not helping their horse.

People are going to be more than happy to hear that.

Yeah, I know.

It always feels so accusatory and I never want it to come off as that.

It's just a supportive measure.

Okay, so let's see.

Get them off grass.

We don't like grass.

Muzzle them.

Boo.

Muzzle them.

Boo, sad.

Keep an eye on their weight.

Listen to your farrier.

Have a communication with them.

If they're noticing something, a responsible practitioner will notice if there's changes in the white line, perhaps a thickening of it.

If there is some cringe effect, if there's starting to be some retracted sole, listen to your hoof care provider.

Watch your horse move.

Look at their eye.

Look at their neck.

Where their neck and their chest kind of meet.

That can tell you a lot.

— Reading Your Horse's Body: Small Red Flags Add Up

If they're super stiff there, that's like, these are all teeny tiny little red ribbons, not necessarily flags.

But if you've got enough of them, they add up.

So we just want to make sure that you're not getting to where you're like, holy shit, I need to call the vet.

Yeah, the little things that, you know, it's death by a thousand cuts.

It's fine.

And here are your little zips.

We got your summer toolkit.

Yeah.

I feel good about this.

Is there, do you think we left anything out?

I feel like this was like super thorough.

I feel like it was too.

I'm happy with where we are and I do want to go ahead and link some research down in wherever Taylor links stuff when she's done because she's the technology woman.

I'll do it.

Yeah, yeah.

We'll see you there.

I'll find you the ones.

Oh, and we'll put safergrass.org.

I was, yeah, I was about to say the exact same thing because you have that in our notes.

Safergrass, if you want to go into some really big time nerdy stuff about grass, and you scare the hell out of yourself, but be way more prepared for this season of Thunderdome, safergrass.org is an awesome resource.

We'll put it down below.

And I think I did find that, I think I put it in our notes that exercise research paper.

Oh, yeah.

That one was really cool.

Okay.

Yeah, I really, I think people should read it.

I think it's really cool.

I can find it because I still, I have access to the university library faculty perk, so we can exploit that and I can find that article for us.

Because that's, I think, a really good one to add in.

I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Yeah, yeah.

We love exercise.

I mean, I don't love exercise, but I love making my horse exercise.

It's good for him.

Yeah.

Yep.

If you or a friend have a topic, story, or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com .

— Closing: Resources, Safergrass.org & Final Thoughts

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

What are you doing?

I don't know.

Just start.

Well, I can hear all that.

It's all recording.

Oh, shit.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Taking my entire stuff apart.

Does this work?

Is this working?

Yeah.

You just take it.

Well, I didn't broke.

Yeah, it's not supposed to come off the stand, but I broke it, so it's fine.

Oh.

That's much better.

Is that a girl?

The pieces are somewhere.

It's fine.

This thing is such a chode.

Look at my hand.

E6: Unicorn Eulogy: Wren's story

Wed, 30 Jul 2025 10:41:52 GMT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Join us for an intimate conversation about the hardest part of horse ownership: saying goodbye. Hear the story of Kahlan's Wren and his last beautiful day. We will be discussing logistics of this painful truth and remembering Wren in all his unicorn glory. Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoof Care Practicioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook!

— Disclaimer & Introducing Wren's Story

Hey, y'all.

Just a little disclaimer before we get into this episode.

Our dear Kahlan had to make a very difficult decision lately to let her darling senior crossover.

So this episode is going to be on euthanasia, the decision-making process on doing so, as well as discussing intentional limb removal for the sake of education.

So we are going to talk about some more off-brand things, some kind of heavy topics.

So please just be aware of that, and this is going to be more of an emotional episode.

So and if you feel that you're not in a space to receive something like this or to hear something like this, probably bow out.

This is something you want to listen to when you're in a space to receive it.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

Yeah.

So yesterday, I and Taylor was there, had to, made the decision to have my old horse put down.

He was maybe 30.

I'm not sure he was a rescue.

I'll tell more of his story.

But I was lucky enough and he was lucky enough to be surrounded by friends and family.

I just wanted to get into talking a little bit about that.

Number one, like that process logistically.

Because it can be kind of chaotic and the more organized you are about it, the less traumatic it is.

Making a plan beforehand.

Yes.

Because when you're in the emotional state of making the choice in the moment, if you have to do it in a heated moment, help yourself out and make those decisions.

Yeah, have a plan.

Because there's a lot of moving parts to it that you don't think about.

Because it's not something we like to think about.

But I had this planned, and I like to think it was pretty well-organized, mostly because of Taylor's professionalism.

I will go ahead and get out of the way that we did this probably earlier than nature would have called for.

I mean, obviously, or he would have been gone before.

— Why Kahlan Made the Decision to Let Wren Go

The reason I did is because I've only had him three years, and he was a rescue.

When I was working with this rescue, he was one that came to us really messed up, super underweight, really gnarled, arthritic legs.

His knees were pretty angry.

They were really bad, and they got really bad in the past, like, three months.

Like, they were a little funky, but they got way worse really fast.

He really did kind of hit a bit of a, I don't want to say a wall, but for his trims, he's always a really good participant, and he and I have this understanding where, like, you know, I know when to tap out, and he asks me, like, hey, Taylor, you only got a second more, do your thing, I got to go.

And that timer has become shorter and shorter, and that was something that Kahlan and I have been discussing that that timer, I think, is something to value and to honor Absolutely, that's one of the ways they're communicating with you, that they're slowing down.

They don't, you know, it really, it kind of pisses me off when people are like, oh, well, they, you know, they still have light in their eyes.

They still want to live.

Okay, yeah, they're prey animals.

Duh.

Like, I think one of the most generous things we can do for our animals is relieve them of discomfort.

Or before it gets to that point.

Yeah, yeah.

And he, if I didn't do this, he probably would have lived, he could have lived another five years, I don't know.

But in, like, in what condition?

Exactly.

In what quality of life?

Yeah.

So I did this at this time because in two months, exactly, I'm going to be moving to Texas from Georgia.

And the climate is a little more extreme there.

That's a nice way to put it.

Yeah.

A little intense for an old guy.

And he doesn't do great in the heat.

He doesn't do good in a stall.

So that doesn't leave me a lot of options.

— The Re-homing Question: Why It Wasn't an Option

I had a lot of people asking me, well, why don't you just re-home him?

Why don't you just give him to someone?

You know, I've got a beautiful network of people.

That would be a disservice to him and whoever took him.

He was very expensive to keep because he required a lot.

He didn't have great teeth because he had no...

I can't say no.

I don't know his entire history, but he had really shitty care.

But until we got him almost 10 years ago and then when I left the rescue, I had to leave him with them.

And he served as a special in Bix Horse because he was a fucking unicorn.

The horse was like, they're truly so kind.

He was so kind.

All he wanted to do was be a convenience to you.

Literally, until his last minute, he was so special.

And I got him knowing, I brought him on personally and privately to be able to provide for him on a more one-on-one situation.

When horses are in a larger farm or in a program, they don't get the individualized attention that they would with just a singular owner.

And when I brought him home, I saw him blossom into something that I didn't know, I met him.

I met him for the first time.

I had known him for years and I just met him.

I think when we've said that before, like we get to meet them and it's almost, it's our way of saying like we have gotten them, not we, or like their journey has gotten them to a place where their personality and their emotionality can actually present itself in a safe way and you actually get to meet them.

Yeah, like you're meeting all facets of their personality, not just the defensive side or not just a scared side or.

You really get to know them.

Yeah, Wren was one that internalized everything.

I'm sure you can figure that out because he was so sweet.

Yeah.

He never fought back.

So if you weren't extremely considerate of how you treated him, never know he was suffering because he was just really kind.

— Who Was Wren: Quiet Suffering & Endless Kindness

And that was one of the reasons why I wanted to have him privately so that I could listen to that.

And he turned into such a jerk.

It was awesome.

When I first brought him home, he was actively in a program being retired at the time.

And he didn't look great because it was just really hard to manage him on that property.

Yeah.

And like the first three months, it was the Wren that I previously knew.

Quiet, reserved, didn't ask for much, just really didn't want to be an inconvenience to anyone.

His winter coat shed out, he looked like sparkly, sparkly, the corn horse, and he started getting so pushy.

It was awesome.

He would scream at me.

He would run next to the fence when I drove in to feed him.

I'd never seen him do that before.

He found his voice.

He did.

He would shake me down for cookies.

And he was the only horse I ever would give unhealthy cookies to, because I knew I was on limited time with him.

And I just wanted to give him whatever the hell he wanted, and turn his nose up at a carrot, at a celery, at apples.

He hated apples, hated them.

Like didn't even want to sniff them.

Are you serious?

And I brought him applesauce.

He loves applesauce.

No, he loves applesauce.

He doesn't like apples.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Very particular.

It's different.

He likes cinnamon.

Okay.

There was a time where I made him, I was trying to make like functional nutrition cookies.

Yeah.

Ate them.

Wouldn't eat them.

Loki loved them, but Wren was like, I don't know what you tried to do here, mom, but these are nasty.

He hated them.

And I so respect that.

He just became, he loved scratches.

He really found himself.

And I was, he had a wife.

He really did.

He loved his wife till the very end.

He's, through everything he went through, he was so kind and trusting.

— Wren's Trust & His Love for His Mares

Like he would easily bond to a person or another horse.

He loved his mares.

He kind of could take it early of a gilding, but he loved his mares.

He likes a pretty girl.

He was a ladies man.

For sure.

And he was gorgeous.

He was a beautiful horse.

He was handsome.

Yeah, he was very handsome.

I wish I could have had him when he was like five.

He had the most beautiful face and the kindest little eyes.

I know.

He was 16 hands, gray, just...

Stunna.

Yeah, stunna.

He had a lot more spots, a lot more freckles a couple of years ago.

Really?

Yeah.

You can't see him as much when he's not shut out.

Oh, I see.

So he was a little fuzzy still.

But anyway, that was Wren.

Wren was extremely special, and I'm honored to have been able to give him a peaceful last day.

But I do feel it's important to talk about how to make that decision.

Yeah.

It's very different for everybody.

And I can only speak for non-emergent situations in this case, because if there's an emergency, I don't wish it on anybody, but it happens.

It's pretty clear when that kind of stuff happens.

But this one wasn't as straightforward.

I could have given him away.

I could have left him with a rescue.

But I promised him the day I brought him home that he would never want for anything a day in his life ever again.

He would have everything, all the comforts, all his preferences, his favorite cookies, his favorite everything, his favorite scratches, till the day he died.

And if I couldn't, I can't expect someone else to fulfill that.

So sometimes, this is like maybe a hot take, I don't know.

I think sometimes with senior horses, it's better that they go down in a safe way, maybe too early rather than too late.

Yeah.

It is more honorable to the horse, in my opinion.

Logistically speaking, we can talk about the day a little bit.

— The Last Day: A Beautiful Send-Off

It was a beautiful day yesterday.

I could not have asked for a better day.

It was handcrafted.

It really was.

But then he so deserved it.

Like, it was barely short of a rainbow coming out of his ass.

It was just, like, it was beautiful.

And we walked him and his wife up to a really beautiful, grassy area, made the hill as easy as possible, you know, took the soft way and got to eat snacks on the way.

He got brushed for like four hours the day before.

I just scratched him until I literally could not scratch any longer until the sun went down.

Yeah.

And he was insisting that I didn't leave, which was funny.

He loves it.

But it was really peaceful.

I, I, you never know what to expect when this decision is made.

And I had a, the vet did a great job.

And he just, he was so, I don't know, considerate.

That sounds like I'm anthropomorphizing a little bit.

Uh, for this guy, I don't, I don't think you can.

I, I don't think that apply.

I think he was considerate.

Yeah.

I thought at first he was gonna fall towards us.

And I told the vet, like, you gotta move.

Cause I can see that where the weight is shifting.

And he didn't.

He just, like, slowly fell away and laid his head so gently in the grass.

And his last breath was with a mouthful of beautiful grass.

It was perfect.

I could not ask for more for him.

I feel so grateful that I was able to do that for him.

And that you were there.

Taylor was not just there as my friend, she was there as a professional.

And she had a really very important, and I can imagine, very difficult role to play in yesterday's activities.

Do you want to talk a little bit about that, Taylor?

I do.

But I do want to kind of back up a little bit and just being there.

So, like Kahlan said, it was a perfect day.

I mean, there was no cloud in the sky.

It was, I mean, this stunning, lush green field.

— The Field, Duchess & Family Gathered Around

Duchess, his wife, was there.

And your mom was there, your husband was there.

And when we say surrounded by family, I mean, this was, we brought out the nines.

His favorite meal.

And the vet who was there, who was, you know, took care of everything, she handled it with so much grace and so much kindness and took up, when I say no space, I mean, it was...

I mean, she did her job and then she backed up.

It was, and she honored everything and...

She let me take my time.

She waited until my family got there.

She rode in the gator far out into the field.

And she was just... she did a great job.

It was a tall order.

And, you know, thank you to all the veterinarians who honor that space and time.

And they just...

It's a really bad day for them too.

And it can be... it can feel really, like, cold.

Yeah.

And they're doing this out of love, not to be cold.

And it was really just... like, that was very clear.

Yeah.

She honored him the best that she could.

And so did we.

And I'm really...

I'm really proud of that.

I couldn't have asked for more.

And Wren's next chapter is going to be as a teacher once again.

Because Taylor...

I don't know how you want to say this, in, like, a nice way.

So when...

As a farrier, we learned so much from past horses and from looking at their limbs.

You know, past, present, you know, either way.

And Kahlan was so kind to offer me, if I wanted to keep a piece of Wren with me, to allow him to tell his story a little bit more, to share his story with other people, to take his legs, which is not an abnormal thing, especially in the hoof care world.

It's kind of commonplace for us to have limbs for dissection purposes, for bone rendering purposes, so we can use limbs to teach anatomy to clients.

You get to know a little bit more about the horse's story through dissection, which sounds kind of grim, but it's when you go through a dissection process, whether it just be a limb or whether it be the whole horse.

— Intentional Limb Dissection: What It Means & Why

I've been very fortunate to go to a whole horse dissection and the story unfolds.

And he so deserves that.

He needs to tell his story because there's so much of it.

There's 20 plus years of untold stories within him.

And Kahlan was very kind and said, if you would like or offered if I wanted to have a piece of him, I could.

And so I was honored to be able to have a piece of him with me.

And it was, you know, removing limbs, because I did it myself.

We didn't have the veterinarian do it.

Removing limbs yourself is...

Intense.

Yeah.

And truth be told, this was my first time doing it.

John, my husband, could not get over the fact that it was your first time.

I mean, I asked, I double-checked with you today, because I thought that that was the case.

He was like, there's no way.

She did that with such precision and such, like, respect for him.

She made...

He didn't get back down to her with the gator.

She was already done in laying flowers, where his legs once were.

So that was a big thing, is we, like...

I guess that's why it did work out so magically well.

Angels do exist, man.

They do.

And when you have to do something, like, all horses are very special, but this one was next level, because not only was he a client, he was also, he was my buddy.

He's everybody's buddy.

He's the sweetest horse.

He's my best friend's kid.

So there's a lot of layers of, like, Taylor, you had to show up today.

It's a big girl day.

This is big girl day.

And, you know, for some limb removal might not be a big issue, but, you know, it was...

Heavy.

Yeah, it was heavy.

And I hate to say it, getting, like, once I got going, I was like, okay, now this is science.

— The Science of Dissection: Getting Past the Hard Part

Now this is science, yeah, but starting.

So Wren and I were really fortunate to have some time together beforehand, which I really appreciated, because you guys all got to have your time together with him and actually got to, like, say your goodbyes.

And I was given privacy to do my thing.

So, Wren and I, we just kind of hung out together.

And we brought some, I brought flowers and we adorned him in flowers.

And it was really, thank you for giving me that time with him.

Thank you for doing that.

I can't wait to learn more about him.

He was very quiet.

He had a very hard life, as far as I know.

Yeah.

And I feel so lucky that I was able to give him a peaceful end, that I have the resources, meaning you.

Oh, jeez.

To be able to learn from him and do the best we can with what is left of him.

So, having that time with him to just sit and share my gratitude for his story, what he taught me, connecting us even more.

I think that's what kind of not made it okay, but gave me what I needed to get through it and to get started.

Yeah.

And I had to do a good job.

There's no way.

Sometimes you just have to show up.

And you did in Spades.

You showed up with your big girl panties on and you made that shit.

I mean, John was, John wanted to take pictures because he said it was just so beautiful what you did for him.

Oh, and, well, and I wanted to also make it not a horror show for the gentleman who is coming to bury him because you have to consider these people as well.

That's not...

Oh my gosh.

And this man, I don't know.

I think we're just doing this episode because we just want to talk about it because everybody goes through it.

Yeah.

And if you have a good support system around you, it can be a really beautiful process.

I mean, it sucks ass for everyone that's still here, but for Wren, we did a good job.

— We Did a Good Job: Finding Peace in the Decision

Oh, this was to the nines.

Yeah.

And he deserves that.

Yeah.

But a friend of mine whose horse is I've helped in a nutrition sense, and just her mare had colic surgery and I helped her with the rehab and blah, blah, blah.

Her boyfriend refused to let me pay him.

That's karma though.

Absolutely.

And I'm so eternally grateful.

Guys, bearing a horse is really expensive.

Like the quote that I got before I spoke to this person was $450.

On top of- Really?

Yes, ma'am.

Wow.

On top of my bill that I was already racking up for low-key paperwork and everything, and then the actual euthanasia process.

Like, that shit's not free.

You're already going through the most traumatic thing in your horse experience.

And then- You got a big ass bill.

You got a big ass bill.

Like, it feels terrible and cold and just like awful.

I feel I'm so grateful.

This man, I was leaving the barn like probably four or five hours later.

It was a long day.

And he just came out of the property.

I showed him where it was and he said, you know, go home.

It's a long day for you.

I'll take good care of him.

And he wanted, he said, you know, was this your personal horse?

Tell me about him before he went up there.

He was just like, everyone involved was so kind and loving.

And that is like Wren deserved no less.

So, you know, thank your horsey friends for being there for you because they really know how to fucking show up.

Yeah.

On like the worst day.

And it wasn't even a bad day.

Like when I think about it, I'm sad, not because I've lost my horse.

I'm sad because I didn't have him before.

I'm sad because I couldn't show up for him for 28 to 30 whole years.

Like, I only had him for a short portion of his life, and he deserved to be loved ridiculously and like unconditionally.

And he wasn't until I had him.

And that sucks.

But you had him for that time and you gave him all of that.

— Giving Him the Softest Place to Land

You gave him the softest place to land.

Yeah, literally.

Yeah.

It was beautiful.

It sounds like I keep talking about it because it sounds like, it sounds like so horrible, but watching him fall was like, I made a good decision.

He looks so comfortable.

It's closure, man.

That's the good kind of closure.

Beautiful.

And his wife was just being so rude.

She was like, almost stepped on him.

She was like trying to eat grass around him, trying to push Taylor around.

Taylor was like, Taylor was on wife duty.

She was the designated duchess holder because she's just like bulldozed in the whole situation.

This woman does not realize what is not about her and I love this mare for it.

She's, how old is she?

I don't know, 100?

I think she's in her late 30s and she has lived every day of those.

She knows what she's about and- I love her so much.

They're like the opposite couple.

Wren was the sweetest, quietest, just like, I don't want to take up space, I'm just grateful that you're here.

Duchess was like, hey, get the fuck out of my way.

There's grass there.

Yeah.

What are you doing?

There's grass there.

Why is this vet still here?

She's in my way.

I know.

I so respect it.

I love it.

But I'm really glad that Wren had that strong personality to bond to.

I think that's why.

They just balanced each other out.

You know what's really interesting?

He, Wren was like, anyone could push him off of anything.

Duchess would go over to take his food and he would stand up to her.

Did he really?

Yes.

The only reason that posture worked for them, Wren didn't have a lot of teeth and he would get free fecal water if he had long stem hay and Duchess is the same.

She actually was a choke risk.

So they were getting forage replacement in the form of pellets, which means they both ate so much.

— Managing Wren's Diet: Forage Replacer & Metabolic Needs

Feeding them was a, that's why I moved him back to that farm, because when I'm at work, he can't have lunch.

He needs breakfast, lunch, after lunch, snack, dinner, bedtime snack.

They need a lot.

So it worked out that I could feed them together because they had the same menu.

But I kind of expected that I would have to like throw Wren extra food and I never did.

He never stole her food and she would never like, she would come over and he would be like, no, and she wouldn't argue.

She'd be like, oh yeah, sorry, which is crazy.

For any married couple, that's insane.

John, I'd be taking his french fries.

Well, yeah, it's the wife tax.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, it's written in scripture.

Thank you.

That's part of the vows, I think.

It is.

And he's clever.

He knows, you know, if I say I don't want to get extra, he's not stupid.

Yeah.

But yeah, it was a really, as easy as that process possibly could have been, but it is a really hard decision to make.

And I think, I don't know, what I want people to hear is like, do it a day too early.

And I know for some folks, that's the hardest part because it's like, but they're good, why would I do it now?

You don't want to do it when they're not good.

Exactly.

And, you know, again, we're not veterinarians.

We are just, you know, just two horse girls just chatting from experience.

And when it gets bad, oftentimes that's when regret seeps in.

Absolutely.

And I've been very fortunate.

I have not had to make that call yet.

And I know one day I will.

It comes for all of us.

It does.

And that's why we wanted to share it because it's inevitable.

And it sucks.

That sucks so bad.

But like, you just have to be brave.

Yeah.

You have to be brave for them to not make them suffer because of our...

Yeah, that's a word, that's, yeah, yeah.

It seems mean, but like, their life is your responsibility from the moment that you have them to the moment they go down.

— Your Horse's Life Is Your Responsibility to the End

Yeah.

And you have to show up for them every fucking time.

You can't have asset, especially when it comes to seniors and any hard decisions that you may, may have to make.

Um, I said that twice.

That's okay.

Whatever.

Um, especially with seniors, you have to watch them and you have to be ready.

And I think a lot of folks don't recognize that when it is senior care, it's hospice care.

Literally.

It's the same thing.

They're, unless you're old, they're not going to outlive you.

Yeah.

And you have to be ready at some point to make that decision and be brave.

Like I, it was kind of annoying me because like all week, people around me were like starting to cry because they knew this was happening.

And I'm like, okay, well, I can't.

I don't have that luxury.

I have to be brave.

I was not feeling brave.

Well, even I remember when, before we even went out to go and get Wren and Duchess, I looked at you and I, like, I felt your vibe shift and like you were, it was boiling and I was like, It's business time now.

Yeah.

And I was like, baby, good.

You okay?

And she's, you just immediately were like, I have to put on a brave face.

I cannot let them.

I'm going to suck these tears back into my eyeballs.

That was mom mode.

Yeah.

That's what I owe him.

I don't.

He's not my therapist.

He doesn't need to carry my emotions.

I owe him this.

And if this is the last brave thing I can do for him, I have to try.

Like, I think that's, I don't know, maybe I'm a little intense, but like, I think that's something that owners don't consider enough.

Like you have to be brave for them, suck those tears back into your eyes until they're done.

Yeah.

Because it's not their job.

It's not their job to hold that for you.

No, it's our job to hold it for them.

— Holding the Hard Emotions So They Don't Have To

Exactly.

Like, they give us so much that we, like, we expect so much of them.

And that's, they didn't sign up for this.

No, they're just passengers.

Like, they're just chilling.

Yeah.

And you have to put on your big girl panties and do it.

And it fucking sucks, dude.

It sucks so bad.

But I'm going to go to the barn in a little bit and go visit him and know that I did the right thing.

You did.

I so appreciate you honoring him in every way you could and loving him in life, too.

Shout out all his tremors and all his care team because he was not an easy one.

He was weak and his back hurt.

And it was really...

Taylor had to hold up my whole horse.

But he was one of those where...

And that's why the seniors are so special, is he was one of those who made it very easy for me and very clear of, like, okay, this is what I can do.

You work within this parameter.

And he was very honest about it.

And some of them, like, some horses, and this includes Wren, even though he would tap out eventually, he would push himself to a level that was unsafe for me.

And I had to be like, you can say uncle, man.

And you know what I noticed?

The longer I had him, the more willing he was to do that.

I know, yeah.

And I was like, I don't know if that's just because you feel safe now or because you don't have a choice but to quit.

Yeah.

He did it.

And Sarah got him one time, she trimmed him downhill.

And she was like, it's actually easier for him this way because it- You mentioned that.

Yeah.

His back, it wasn't a steep hill.

It was just like a little incline.

And it was so much easier on him because his back hurt so bad.

And that's part of it.

It's just physically so difficult for them.

And towards the end, when his knees were getting really bad, Taylor would beamer him.

She has a beamer that she offers as part of her services.

— The PEMF Practitioner & End-of-Life Comfort Tools

And they love it.

I highly recommend it.

It's, you know, it's not expensive.

It's easy for your care person to do.

And they appreciate it so much.

Like, when you beamed him the last couple of times that you were there, you said it made a huge difference.

Oh, my God.

Because I put it on his knees and I'd let it cook.

Yeah.

I'd go do a couple of other horses.

I'd set, you know, him and the wife up in front of the salad bar.

They'd have their hay net in front.

And they would just hang out together.

I'd go do like one or two more and come back.

And he would, I mean, it really helped him tremendously.

So anything like palliative care that we can do to support them.

Yeah.

And it's ugly.

But if you can't financially do those things, then maybe cut it even shorter.

And I know that sounds mean, but like...

But is it?

Does it sound mean?

I don't know.

It doesn't.

I feel like it could.

But it's the right thing to do.

Like, if you can't give them all these creature comforts in their last days, give them less days to be uncomfortable.

And that's part of what I did.

Like, I could board him somewhere and spend, you know, $700 a month on board and another $700 on his food and care and all his creature comforts.

And I could live in Texas, and I could just rely on someone else to do this.

I can't afford to do that, and I can't afford to have someone else watch him and make that decision.

Like, it's not fair to him.

So I'm really...

I really do feel very good about that.

I feel like I'm happy.

It sounds sad, but I'm happy, and it's all good.

So I don't really know.

This episode was just to talk about it, talk it out, honor Wren, and, you know, any way we can, and talk about kind of how the process goes.

So thank you guys so much for listening and holding space for Wren T.

Mullin T., Mr.

— Remembering Wren's Barn Friends & His Funny Names

Bo Bentee.

The goodest boy.

And, you know, like Kahlan said, if you get anything out of this, it's just recognizing that, like, the day sounds so grim, but, like, the day will come, and the kindest thing that you can do is to have a plan for you and for your horse and the aftermath.

And having that in place will save future you from having to make decisions when you are in a, like...

More urgent state.

Yeah, and you don't want to have to deal with that then.

No.

So help future self out.

Yeah.

Have a plan, especially if you buy an old horse.

Like, I got him when he was old, so I've had time to think about this.

And then, you know, bringing you into the picture for your role and not just as my friend was, you know, that's a big deal.

And it just, everything was so smooth.

And have a plan.

Have a plan for your young horse.

Have a plan for your old horse.

I mean...

Have a plan.

Have a plan?

Have a plan.

It just makes the whole thing less traumatic and more comfortable.

And one thing, I'm not really a people person, but horse communities show up.

Yeah.

Like horse people fucking show up for each other.

Yeah.

So take advantage of that.

I don't know a single horse person that is alone.

Is there not?

We're all in this together.

Yeah.

Even if we subscribe to different ideologies and whatnot, like the whole point is for the good of the horse.

And regardless of what school of thought you come from, that should be the mantra.

And that's what unites us.

Absolutely.

And use your resources, call people with equipment, because it's expensive.

It's so expensive.

So I guess that's it.

Yeah.

I just wanted to talk about him a little bit and talk about how that could possibly go and just shout him out, I guess.

Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing it, because this was yesterday.

Yes.

This was yesterday

— Closing: This Is Fresh — Grief, Gratitude & Grace

So this is fresh.

Yeah.

But it feels right.

And if I had been any less lucky in how it turned out, then maybe I wouldn't be ready, but it was just perfect and he deserves all that and then some.

If you or a friend have a topic, story, or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission, or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

E5: Uh Oh Ovary — Ophelia's Story

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 09:32:56 GMT

Kahlan and Taylor host their first guest! Sally Colbert is a life long equestrian and dear friend of Taylor. Sally was nice enough to come on the show and share the story of her own Red Mare, Ophelia. This poor girl has been through it, but Sally stuck with her. From radial nerve damage from a kick, EPM, a fractured elbow, and a very impressive ovarian cyst. Sally tells her story, how symptoms of all presented, and management. Today, Ophelia is sound and happy. Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoof Care Practicioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook!

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Welcome & Introducing First Guest Sally Colbert

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

So I'm so excited to finally meet you, Sally.

I've heard so much about you.

Oh, hopefully good things.

All good, I promise.

You're our first guest, and we're so excited that you're our first guest.

Hey, I'd love to be your first, thank you.

And actually, so her, her mare, Ophelia, is, she is like the OG, the, like the big inspiration for The Red Mare Project.

So Sally's been gracious enough to share her story, which is a 46-page medical history.

In her defense, a lot of this is Coggins and shots, but meeting her, you wouldn't blink an eye.

You'd be like, all right, that tracks.

She is, I hate to say, the stereotypical Red Mare, but she has a lot of opinions and she wears them out loud.

She's also a thoroughbred and she's been a quintessential thoroughbred, and she's had a lot of issues that we've had to sort out, suss out, and it's ongoing.

I would love to listen to a podcast like this.

As horse people, to have a community to bounce ideas off of, we all want to do right by our horses, and to hear of something interesting or out of the blue, hey, that might make sense for what I'm experiencing.

I love that as a community, we can bounce ideas off of each other.

She fucking gets it.

Yeah.

Thank you for helping us with that.

Because it sounds like you've got plenty to say.

I've got plenty to say, however, I am a true adult amy, so while I do know a thing or two about a thing or two, there's a lot of things I don't know, and I can't speak as eloquently as maybe a vet or y'all could on certain things.

I mean, we're already doing pretty damn good, Sally.

Yeah, you're killing it.

Yeah.

Thanks.

I'm the personality hire.

Okay, I fear I might be too.

Everyone needs one.

Just like for a little bit of like back story, so Sally and I actually met in undergrad.

I found her, it was like a Thursday morning, and if you know the significance of a Thursday morning in undergrad, you know, but Sally was sitting on her tack box, I walked into the barn, and it's like, I don't know, the sun was up, whatever, and she was eating Taco Bell, a Crunchwrap Supreme, on her tack box, and I was violently hungover.

Yep, yep.

That beauty right there.

That's my buddy.

That's my pal.

And here we are how many years later?

Oh, God, let's not discuss that.

I know that I was 19.

I should not have been out at the bars.

And as a 31-year-old lady, I would simply pass away if that was my Wednesday evening.

Oh, absolutely.

I simply could not hang.

I would not be going to work the next day.

Yeah.

I think Taylor and I just locked eyes, and we were like, hey.

What's up?

I love you.

— Sally's Background & Her Bond with Ophelia

Love it.

Just, how are you?

Right off the, right into the D-Fan.

And, you know, one of the great things about Taylor is, even though we've lived apart for so many years, we've always stayed in contact, and horses in particular have always been our, hey, can we talk about this?

And let me bounce something off of you.

And I've just really appreciated that.

And hey, Kahlan, you might be now into that.

I'm going to start texting you.

Oh, we'd be bouncing.

We have a lot of bouncing.

We'd be bouncing.

We have like a 15-year running chat, and it's pretty excellent.

Yeah, I think we talk just about every day.

It's excellent, except when I need to find something.

Yeah.

Oh, you know, you can use the search feature.

We say a lot of the same stuff.

Well, you know, there's a little bit of digging in the weeds.

Yeah, it's okay.

It's fine.

Like a treasure hunt.

Yeah.

I guess if you want me to introduce myself a little bit to your audience.

Yeah, do it.

Which thankfully is not going to be me because I'm not going to listen to this.

I can't stand the sound of my own voice.

It's science.

None of us do.

It is science.

Thank you, lovely.

Thank you.

Agreed.

My name is Sally Colbert.

I have been an inventor for most of my riding career.

I started riding at nine.

We got my first horse at 11.

Second horse at 16, who I still own.

Her name is Millie.

We won't talk about her today, but she's amazing.

And then something happened and it broke in my brain at 26.

And I said, you know what?

I can handle a green thoroughbred.

That'll be good.

Two weeks after you got married.

Oh yeah.

Let's backtrack.

I got married and I don't know what happened.

I saw her picture online and I said, you know, I'm Jake, my now husband.

Hey, I've got plans to go buy this horse.

And he was like, hey, maybe don't do that.

And I was like, well, it's done.

So anyway, but we're still married.

That being said, he prefers the original horse, Millie, and Ophelia.

She's, he says, I'm in an abusive relationship with her.

Yeah, I guess that wasn't too much about my personal history with horses, but I've only competed successfully up through training level.

I've done half of a prelim.

I've got my good scores to second level in dressage.

I just kind of like to trail ride and pitter-patter around.

And my main goal as an adult amateur is just to have a horse that's comfortable and looks good when I take her to shows.

Amen, sister.

She's underselling it.

Sally is a Renaissance woman.

She figures shit out.

If there's a task at hand, she will figure it out.

She's very resourcful.

That's what I gathered.

Someone I've heard.

She makes it happen.

— Ophelia's Character: Big Personality, Big Problems

Yeah, which is why I think we have such, like she's been throwing all these obstacles with Ophelia and has conquered every single one.

And these are not easy obstacles.

So...

No, it doesn't sound like it.

No.

And we can get started on that if you want to dive into Ophelia.

Yeah, let's jump in.

The first one.

Well, one, she's still alive with, she's with us today.

So when we get into this, don't worry.

There's a happy ending to the story and it's that she survives.

She's a 2017 model.

She came off the track just before she turned physically three, but she turned three on January 1st.

They raced her one time in January.

She came in second to last.

I'm not sure why they thought she would race at all.

It's like cantering in place.

I just need to emphasize that before we get into it.

I like how there was a delay when you said second to last because I thought you were going to say she was second and I was going to be so excited.

I did too.

I was like, no, no, no.

To last.

To be fair, I think the only reason she wasn't last is because the horse that came in last place might have been injured.

So I cannot oversell the fact that this horse is a slow moving creature.

Beautiful.

That being said, I bought her and she came from Louisiana.

We drove her up to Mississippi.

She's going to R&R with my cousin and just eat grass and be a horse.

The first stop, this happened maybe about a month after I got her, she was kicked in the chest and what ended up happening was we weren't sure, because there wasn't an abrasion, we weren't sure what happened and her chest swelled up a little bit.

The vet was out.

It was a lot of bit.

Let me, yeah, let me back out.

This was five years ago.

Her chest swelled, the vet came out, he drained it and my cousin sent me a video.

I live in Tennessee, so this horse is four hours away from me.

And her, it was her front right leg was just sticking out and dragging the ground.

Like full-on paralysis.

Yeah, and this is within 30 days of me buying this horse.

My cousin's doing the best she can.

She has the vet out and the vet's kind of confused as to what could be causing this.

And a rare but interesting thing is it could be pigeon fever and that's a bacterial infection and it causes, and it's usually on the horse's chest or abdomen and it causes like radial nerve damage.

It ended up not being that.

She just got kicked in the chest.

Before we kind of figured out exactly what that was, my cousin was like, hey, this horse is not doing well.

It might be incompatible with life.

And I'm like, well, maybe.

I mean, the video that you sent me was haunting.

— The Kick Incident: Hematoma & Radial Nerve Damage

She had, I mean, the hematoma was at least the size of like a cantaloupe.

And her entire limb was just, I mean, it was just dead.

It was just a dead leg.

My baby girl, she looked so pitiful.

It was pitiful.

And she was just a kid.

That's so sad.

She was just a baby.

She hadn't even like officially turned three yet.

Her birthday's in April.

And she's just, she got booted from her first job, kicked in the chest by some mean quarter horse.

And she's just gimping along without wind beneath her sails.

What did you guys do for her?

What was the recovery?

She got, thank you for asking, because I'm trying to remember.

She obviously got antibiotics, anti-inflammatories.

I think she was on stall rest for a little bit.

My cousin really stepped up and cold hosed her every day, kept her leg wrapped because of course the swelling went down.

And then she, this was a pretty quick recovery once it, I think it was probably two weeks.

Oh, good.

And she got individual turnout.

I got videos of her gimping along.

And then eventually she just got turned back out.

And I was like, please avoid that mean horse.

Geez.

Make good choices.

But I'm sure everybody's had a horse kicked at some point.

Oh, yeah.

But like radial nerve damage, like that's kind of, that's kind of wild.

And I actually, I got to thinking a little bit, too, like the, like, because it made me think, like, the potential to develop Sweeney shoulder.

But that's like a completely different beast.

So like, Sweeney, that's connected to, like, the superscapular nerve.

But I guess the radial nerve can be connected to it.

But she hasn't had any atrophy or like anything connected to it since then, has she?

No.

She healed up great.

And you wouldn't know it.

But I, I wish I could show everyone the video through a podcast.

We can post it if you want.

We can put it in the show notes.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that might be.

Actually, that's a good idea.

We should do that.

I got lots of pictures and videos.

So, yeah, that was...

I have...

So, do you think or was the diagnosis just that the radial nerve was so inflamed so it wasn't like functioning properly?

Because I know if there was like true damage, I know in people nerves regrow at like a millimeter a month.

Really?

So, if there was like damage to the nerve that would cause it to need to literally be regrown, and that would have taken a long time.

So, like, do you think it was just the inflammation around the injury?

I think what he ended up saying was it was inflammation and it was almost impinging, and the swelling.

So something, like, I think the hematoma was pressing on the radial nerve that she needed to move her leg.

— Hematoma Pressing on the Radial Nerve Explained

Oh, damn.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

So, thankfully, it wasn't true nerve damage.

It was just...

That must have been so confusing for her.

You know, a fit racehorse, all of a sudden front leg doesn't work.

Bless her heart.

That's the song.

Yeah.

Okay, she's through it.

It was a quick recovery.

Her letdown was maybe five or six months in a field in Mississippi.

Lush grass, surprisingly, in Mississippi.

And then she came up here to Tennessee, where we'll get to the next fun bit of her history.

So, she came, horses coming off the track.

Everybody has a different experience.

She lost a ton of weight and muscle.

She wasn't getting 12 pounds of sweet feed a day.

So she kind of had to relearn, or her digestive system had to kind of re-function again.

And part of it, and a lot of off-the-track thoroughbred owners go through this, is abscesses.

Basically, as their diet changes, their body just kind of blows out a lot of stuff through their hooves.

And in particular, she kept getting chronic abscesses.

It was both front feet, right at the point of her toe.

And it would come up and out through her cornet band.

And I cannot stress enough chronic abscesses.

It would be like she would have a week of soundness, and then one would be brewing.

And then we'd get it out, the next one.

It was like six months of just, and these were big abscesses.

I have a picture of one of them.

You sent them to me.

And she still has, we reset her fronts yesterday, on both feet.

She has a crena.

So there's like actual, I mean, I would assume that there's bone remodeling in there.

Did you actually get a solar margin view, like a radiographic?

No, but I will get that for you.

Cause I'm pretty certain that she remodeled her coffin bone with all of those abscesses.

Yeah.

And it's wild.

One of the skills that she taught me is I can wrap a mean foot.

I'm sure you can.

Yeah.

In each class.

I could.

I can make sure.

I can tell you how to wrap a foot and it'll stay on and turn out.

And with abscesses, obviously, you know, soak, wrap, keep it clean, and movement.

You know, you want them to move and it to blow out.

That's it.

And it's just a lot of people who think that you need to keep them in as soon as they're, you know, down from an abscess, as soon as they're unsound, keep them in until it blows out.

And that makes it take so much longer.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're so right.

You're so right.

And, you know, I think it's obviously like one of the scariest things as a horse owner to like come out and your horse is three legged.

And for some reason, even though abscess is most common, my brain never goes there.

— Misdiagnosis Fears & Ruling Out Abscess

No, it's not.

Oh, no.

Her leg's broken.

Yeah.

Call the vet immediately, alert the authorities, tell my boss I'm not coming in.

Yeah.

Well, and she's not stoic.

And they were, I mean, you sent me videos of her going when they were brewing and they were, I mean, she felt every bit of that.

Oh, yeah.

One thing about Ophelia Grace, and she is a redheaded mare, and she wears her ailments front stage on her sleeve.

She lets you know if we call her, and we'll get to this later, but the princess and the tumor pea.

Oh.

So she is the princess and the pea, any little thing, it's a level 10.

It's a big deal.

So we were working on her yesterday, Kahlan, just to like put this in perspective.

When we were working on her yesterday, something happened and spooked her, and it was, I don't know what it was, but it was something very small, and I literally heard the smear say, oh my god, like I actually have a child, and if you know, you know.

I do.

And I saw her grab her pearls, and...

Oh yeah.

Cameron, what was that?

Oh my god.

I love her.

She's a cool horse.

She's super cool.

Yeah.

She's beautiful, and sometimes that's all she has going for her.

But it's enough.

It's a good thing she's cute.

It's a scotly, it's a good thing she's cute, and she's really sweet despite everything.

But yeah, getting back to these chronic abscesses, just it was about six months, and I like how you said, you know, diet.

Just it had to work out of her system.

And since then, she really has not had an abscess since.

So it was six to eight months, I think, of just, you know, we were in the trenches, and I would, you know, lunge her for a little bit, maybe do a little bit, and then back to lame, and then figure out something, back to lame.

So.

And it was bilateral, too.

It was both fronts, right?

Both fronts, yeah.

It wasn't just one foot, and it was both fronts.

It's really good that you had the soundness of mind to know, like, this is temporary, this is, you know, like you said before, you think they're coming up, and it's always the worst of the worst.

But you know it's because you're doing right by her, and she's working out her past.

I would have been a puddle in her stall.

I would have been unwell for six to eight months.

I would have not been able to hold down a job.

I would have been unwell.

So it's so like she's so lucky that she had that, and you were like, okay, I know what to do.

This is temporary.

She's going to be okay.

And then she was.

One of us is allowed to freak out at any given time, and it's never my turn.

It's always her turn.

— It's Always Her Turn: Living with a Complicated Horse

So I get that.

It's usually my turn with my horse.

You have a gelding, right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

But he's wide open.

Oh, good.

I need to meet this guy.

Your first episode, you were talking about it, and I was like, I really like Kahlan.

I love the way she speaks about her son.

See, that's my son.

Yeah.

And you have a delicate daughter, and she always has the turn with the freaking out stick.

Yeah.

She's never handed it over in five years.

I like that.

No.

I respect it.

Maybe one day.

He clutches it by her pearls.

Yeah.

So that was her history with abscessing.

I learned a lot from it.

And if anybody listening has a Thoroughbred coming off the track, and you're trying to reshape their diet, know that they have a lot of, for lack of a better term, junk to grow out of their feet.

And unless there's some other pathology, you know, that will pass.

Do you think a lot of times there's, I heard someone explain this to me, and I don't know how much science is rooted in it, but it makes a lot of sense because there's so much concussion on the track.

Like, I mean, these guys are just wide open that there's a possibility that, and their bones are still developing, that there's actually like little tiny, maybe little micro fractures in the coffin bone, like little pieces pop off.

And during that purging, they just, they're part of that expulsion process.

Yeah.

All right, I'm gonna start to get pissed off if we keep talking about horse racing.

Okay, I know how dirty it was last night too.

Oh my God, there were composites.

I saw composites.

I saw glue.

Okay, progress.

So we were, actually, sidebar opened back.

Yeah.

So we had like a really great derby party at Sally's house last night, and this one horse walked in, and I had food in my mouth, and I just kept yelling, glue.

No one knew what the fuck I was talking about.

And they were like, Taylor, that's really rude.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, his feet.

Yeah, in any other context, someone staring at a horse walking across the screen yelling, glue, would hit very differently.

Oh, absolutely.

I get it.

Anyway, okay.

Back on track.

All right.

So we survived the abscesses.

We survived that.

Quick sidebar into how she got her name because this is around the same time.

Oh, essential.

Yeah.

So during one of the brief periods where she was sound, I was riding my older mare and I was ponying Ophelia.

And a horse fly bit her.

She takes great offense to horse flies.

And she came up and I saw hooves near my face and I let go of her.

You were leading her, right?

I was leading her.

She was in a rope halter.

So there's no breakaway.

— The Breakaway Incident & How It Happened

This is important to the story.

Oh, dear.

We live and we learn, however, she broke away and then realized that the rope was chasing her and she panicked.

I had to address that in training later, but that's not her medical history.

Anyway, she panicked, ran away from me trying to outrun that rope, flipped over a fence.

I think she tried to jump it.

It was a more slide flip, ran across the street into a neighborhood.

Meanwhile, I'm just sitting on my old horse like, well, this was fun.

Freaking out.

I would throw up, Sally.

I would throw up.

Oh, yeah.

This was my worst nightmare.

I'm thinking, all right, I've already started thinking, I'm going to have to call the police, report her missing, like she's going to be in the woods in the next county over.

I'm never going to find her again.

She's not going to survive in the woods.

Yeah, she's incompatible with life with the best of care.

So I see her, and I'm mentally thinking, all right, here's what I've got to do, XYZ, and this is the last straight.

I got my phone pulled out about to call somebody, and all of a sudden she comes flying back towards me.

So from into a neighborhood in the distance, she comes back into view, runs back down the driveway of the barn, and I had to yell at this little kid who was in the next door house.

I was like, shut the gate because I couldn't get in.

So anyway, we corralled her, we caught her.

She had a busted up nose, and she still has a scar on it from her stepping on the rope.

So I do feel terrible about that, and ever since then, I've spent a lot of time getting her desensitized ropes.

I can imagine, yeah.

Yeah.

You don't appreciate all the things that horses have to be desensitized to, to understand.

And you learn through.

All of that to say, as far as that's how her name came about, I'd already named her Ophelia, but I called Taylor pretty much in tears, explaining how I almost lost and killed my brand new off the track thoroughbred.

Taylor just was like, Ophelia Grace.

And I was like, that's her fucking name.

That's awesome.

We refer to her as OG or Ophelia Grace.

And when she's misbehaving, it's Ophelia Grace.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, Taylor will call my horse by his full government name.

Yeah, she's good at that.

I kind of love it.

Like when your mom gets mad at you and she calls you by your middle name.

If you pull out the mommy finger and do the mommy finger wag, it's a whole other level.

Yeah.

That's like- Oh yeah, I would be scared.

Oh my God.

But that was, yeah, I remember when you called me, that was, I didn't even know what to say because the story, I'm trying to keep up with all the things.

— The Phone Call: Trying to Keep Up with the Story

I'm like, why is she in a residential area?

How did she get there?

I lost her for a little bit.

It's okay.

She came running back.

Just anyway, so follow that over horse fly.

All right.

They're mean.

I mean, they hurt.

Actually, that's proportional.

Yeah.

That's kind of how I react to a horse fly, honestly.

The reaction matched the offense.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

All right.

So shortly after that, this is when the really big stuff started to happen, right?

Yeah.

So I had a couple of years, and I was very casual with her.

She didn't have a big job.

I would just kind of tack her up and putz around a little bit and try and figure out what was greenness and what was physical.

And that's been an overriding story with her, is what's going on in her body that is causing her to react this way?

Is it training?

Is it me being an adult amy not really knowing what I'm doing?

Or does she have a physical ailment?

And so leading up to this, we're going to get to like, this happened about two years ago.

In January, we started having a lot of explosiveness under saddle.

She's always been a bucker.

And, you know, she just, she didn't, it wasn't doing right.

She didn't feel right.

She seemed uncomfortable.

I'm trying to think of everything that, I thought maybe, you know, she didn't feel good in her body.

I had a massage therapist out.

I had the chiropractor out.

And that helped a little bit, you know, of course, as anything like that was probably going to help.

I had a saddle fitter come out and check her saddle fit.

We, you know, readjusted her saddles.

There was a lot of things that kind of came down, and I was like, this horse is just not happy.

You know, she's not acting right.

And we would have, you know, half of a good ride and then, you know, a bad ride.

And this would be in kind of a cyclical nature.

And that comes...

Hmm, foreshadowing?

Foreshadowing cycles.

So, I ended up, I took her...

Let me pull out my patient history.

I took her, I called the vet, and I was like, hey, she is...

She's just, she doesn't feel right.

I want like a soundness evaluation.

And he flexed her.

I'm talking away from the mic, sorry about that.

And we found a little bit...

We took radiographs of her hawks, and he was like, these aren't the greatest hawks I've ever seen on a six-year-old.

And he ended up prescribing her a...

We couldn't exactly pinpoint what it was, but she was obviously uncomfortable and a little bit unsound.

And he prescribed her an anti...

Like two different anti-inflammatories.

I think it was like a Equiox, some Butte and whatever that muscle relaxer.

— Pain Management Protocol: Equiox, Bute & Robaxin

Robaxin?

Yes, Robaxin.

Two weeks of that.

A hell of a cocktail.

Yeah.

Because it was like a rotating lameness.

Like it was just, it was like a floating body lameness.

Like it wasn't limb specific.

Yeah.

Everything was hurting.

Nothing was right.

And the first thing that came to my mind with today's climate is, this might be a kissing spine or something like that.

Like she's obviously uncomfortable over her back, but it is translating into lower, different limb lameness.

Yeah.

So a couple of weeks off, a good cocktail, and then he was like, all right, and then try and get on her again and see how she does.

And she looked kind of okay on the lunge.

I tacked her up and I go to swing my leg over.

We walk, you know, maybe 50 steps that she just went up, just full on vertical with me.

And I was like, okay, yeah.

She does not feel good.

We missed the target.

That, yeah, good thought didn't help.

So I called back and I was like, hey, you know, let's do a recheck that, you know, that wasn't it.

And as my appointment was approaching, she started getting more and more unhandleable on the ground.

And she's got, despite what Taylor saw yesterday, great ground manners.

She's very respectful.

We don't need to go into that.

Don't worry about that.

So as, let me tell this funny story, how did the vet ended up finding it.

So right before our recheck, I was going to haul her in.

I was like, we're going to x-ray this horse from top to bottom.

I want as clear views as we can of her neck, maybe parts of her spine.

I know you can't get a good clear picture sometimes if there's a lot of muscle, and basically anything we can do.

He was asking about it and I was like, well, the barn manager has noticed, she's been acting a little studdish.

She's a mare and one of the men working at the barn, English is his second language, and he said, Ophelia, she tried to make Rachel, Rachel's her pastor mate, Rachel, her girlfriend, did not know Ophelia was a lesbian.

Wait, she started mounting.

Oh yeah, I forgot that.

Yeah.

Oh dear.

Whoa.

I was like, whoa.

All right.

I was like, hey, I didn't know either.

This could maybe be important.

I tell the vet this and I was like, hey, she's really sensitive over her back.

He knew that.

Rotating limb lameness.

Also, she's trying to make sweet, sweet love to her mare neighbor.

Yeah, her roommate.

He says, he's like, wait a minute, this might be something.

He drugged her up and stuck his fist up her butt and was going.

You know, so poetic.

Yeah.

So you know, hey, at least she, there was lube and she was on drugs.

— The Rectal Exam & What the Vet Found

So she didn't mind.

And he stopped and he said, hey, he's talking to another vet.

He's like, come feel this.

Oh no.

I was like, oh no.

Turns out her left ovary was the size of a volleyball.

Oh my God.

Holy shit.

For context, it's supposed to be the size of a lemon.

Yeah.

Whoa.

And the thing about, so he had a diagnosis like pretty much right off the bat.

What ends up happening, and it's pretty common in mares, it was a granulose cell tumor on her left ovary.

And it wasn't like a tumor that grew on, it was ovary and tumor together.

So, it was all one thing.

Okay.

I don't know the medical terminology, but when I think of...

All one thing.

Yeah.

All one thing.

When I think of tumors and stuff like that, it's something growing on top of something or in something.

No, it was just the whole ovary looked like a sponge, you know, just...

Oh, I think they use the word, it's like a beehive presentation.

Yeah.

I think that's the term that they use.

Okay.

I may be lying.

I don't know.

Heal her away.

Oh, yeah.

Did this cause her to produce more testosterone?

Yes.

Okay.

So he took a blood test, even though he could quite literally feel it and he ultrasound it too.

He ran a blood panel, and I have that written down.

Oh, for testosterone levels?

Yes.

No, it's over.

So while she's looking for that, Kahlan, I remember Sally sent me a video of her leading the mare out to her pasture.

Did you have a stud chain on her at that point?

I think I was using my rope halter.

You were?

Okay.

But when I was growing up, I used to board a breeding facility where they did live cover, and that's literally how this mare was walking, is if she was being led out to cover.

That's crazy.

She was flying a kite.

She was just walking out to the field.

Just walking.

I was thinking, the poor people at the barn who are leading her out, I'm scared of my own horse.

I can't imagine.

Yeah.

I hope they live.

Yeah.

They did.

Everyone's safe.

So her blood panel, it tested for inhibin, progesterone, testosterone.

Her inhibin was a little bit elevated, and that's typical for a cycling mare.

Her progesterone was consistent.

Her testosterone, and I'm quoting here, level is elevated for a non-pregnant mare.

So the reference range is from 20 to 45 pictograms per milliliter, and Ophelia had 296.6 pictograms per milliliter.

Oh dear.

Yeah.

That's like approaching normal for a human man.

Really?

Well.

Yeah.

No kidding.

It apparently needed to be quite low in mares.

One interesting thing about it though, because she acted so studdish, her muscle tone was great.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm sure she looks beautiful.

She looks stunning, stunning babes.

— Ophelia's Recovery: Looking Stunning Despite Everything

Stunning, absolutely stunning.

So she looked fantastic.

She just was the worst.

She was terrible to ride, obviously.

She was in pain.

She was terrible to lead.

She was very scary and she's just a girl.

She's literally just a girl.

So walking out into the field or just handling her, she was doing all that.

Out in the field, she was trying to cover her other horses.

What was she like in her stall?

It was a little hit or miss.

So back to being a little cycly, the vet explained it to me and he was like, because this tumor is making her produce so much testosterone, that he, and I'm going to quote him, his name is Dr.

Nathaniel Wright.

He said, when she cycles, her estrogen goes up, and then you have the testosterone that's already extremely high.

He's like, there's a lot of hormones going on here.

He's like, I wouldn't be surprised.

This feels, it's like an atomic bomb in a horse.

Oh, great to hear.

Actually, that does track.

She's traumatizing me, monthly, honestly.

I'm scared.

I'm terrified of this horse.

He used the word atomic bomb.

Yeah, he said it was like a bomb.

He's like, I understand everything you're saying based on this.

Once we figured out what it was, obviously, the only way to treat it is surgery.

It has to be removed.

So we tried to schedule it.

This was in early May.

So the Tennessee Equine Hospital, where she went, was extremely busy.

And we kind of had it scheduled for later on in May.

They were trying to work her in.

And I think that video I sent to you, Taylor, of her walking out, I was like, she's actually dangerous to be around.

Is there any way you can fit her in sooner?

Yeah.

And yeah, so they got her in, and within a couple of days, performed the overectomy.

And I got to watch part of it.

Oh, that's awesome.

Most of it, yeah, through a window.

It was a little bit like Grey's Anatomy for horses.

Yeah, I mean, kind of traumatizing, but also really insightful.

Yeah, it was cool.

The other thing is I had recently gotten a promotion at work, so I was getting paid more.

And Ophelia was like, hey, I need that.

Yeah.

All right.

I heard you like money.

I too like money.

Yeah.

She's like, I too have a requirement for your wallet.

Yes.

And so they went in through her left flank.

Let me see if I can find the exact terminology.

But underneath the point of her ilium and her hip, and before her stifle, like right in the mid, there's about a six-inch scar where they cut through.

And some of these they can do laparoscopically.

But her volleyball tumor needed to come out.

Yeah, I was going to say that probably was too big for that.

— Ovarian Cyst Discovery: How Do They Remove It?

That was too big for that.

So how do they do that?

Do they just cut it up into pieces and pull it up bit by bit?

No, they kind of like stave off the blood flow, you know, clamp it and cut all of its attachments and then just pulled it out.

Oh my God.

She, the doctor, Dr.

Allison Stewart presented it to me like a trophy afterwards.

You sent me a picture of it.

I thought I didn't have a way to preserve it and I wasn't sure I wanted to be that weird.

Did you keep it?

Oh, I would have kept it.

It's not weird, I would have kept it.

I have so much to thank for that.

And what's worse is eyeball and formalin.

Oh, hey.

Well, I would have needed a very large jar.

Like a bucket, really.

A bucket, yeah.

A bucket.

It doesn't make a good decoration.

Well, everybody coming over to my house, I would make sure to point it out.

Yes.

I mean, yeah.

So some of the common questions I get asked about this, because I tell everybody I know, if you've got a mare who's doing something weird, and mind you, one of the common questions I get is, how long was this brewing?

They don't really have a way to tell.

There's not a ton of studies on when they start, because once they're found, they're removed.

So there's no real timeline.

But it was extremely uncommon for it to affect a mare so young and not an older mare.

Usually, older mares, when they find it, it's one, not the size of a volleyball, maybe the size of a grapefruit.

And the reason they find it is because the mare has a hard time getting pregnant.

It is unusual for it to affect a horse to this degree.

And then, you know, soundness-wise.

That was going to be my next question, like the extre- not the extremity, but like the extent of it.

Because this was very severe, severity, that was the word I was looking for.

Severity, 10 out of 10.

Ophelia does nothing by half measures.

No.

Just red-line it.

Red-line it.

So like, do you know, have you thought about like there being any symptoms or like presentations or things like that, that she was doing like way early?

Like, if she was doing anything funny, like, okay, so on.

January is when it started.

May was when she had the surgery.

Was she doing anything like earlier in the winter or the fall that you think could have been like little baby cues?

Um, that's hard for me to maybe nail down because, you know, she's a green horse.

Yeah.

She's a green mare.

What, what is, you know, you know, she probably had some saddle fit issues.

Well, I know she did.

And when she cycled, I didn't know, like there weren't a ton of like little red herrings, I guess, so to speak.

Okay.

And if so, it sounds like they probably could have blended in with a bunch of other things that were also, they could have been more just like circumstantial.

— Behavioral Symptoms: What Was Circumstantial vs. the Cyst

Yeah.

That's horses in general.

Like, is this a symptom or is this?

Yeah.

Like girthiness, that could be a symptom of a million things under the sun.

So it's hard to actually say, like.

Yeah.

But weren't you telling me last night, like, oh, Kahlan, go ahead.

Well, I was just going to say, it sounds like you didn't have that much time experiencing what her normal was since you've owned her.

So you were still learning what her baseline was.

Yeah.

And I tell everybody, I'm like, when you have a green horse, in particular, if you're an amateur like myself, you're trying to figure out, all right, what's normal for this horse?

Because they're all individuals, they've all got their own little quirks and idiosyncrasies.

What's something physical?

What's something training related?

What's learned behavior?

And I still, even though I've had her five years, I somewhat know what's normal, but as soon as I say it, she makes a liar out of me and we have a new normal.

But that's a tall order to be able to parse out all of those.

I mean, granted, like, you know, that's our job, but it's still like, it's still a lot to do.

Five years is not that long.

Yeah.

Well, you know what?

Thank you for saying that.

Especially with everything that you guys have had to manage and problem solve.

Yeah.

She's had, she's thrown some curve balls at me.

Oh, another quick question I get is, what about the other ovary?

Because, you know, we all hopefully have two ovaries.

Yeah.

And I asked the vet too, I was like, while you're in there, do we want to just take the other one?

And he explained it.

He was like, well, we don't want to do that.

There's a possibility if you do that that, I can't remember exactly how he phrased it, but they would almost always be an estrus and she would be like cycling eternally.

Something would be thrown off.

He was like, don't worry, she'll have one ovary.

If you want to breed her, you can in the future.

Absolutely not.

Her bloodline ends with her.

We don't need to subject her to the rest of the world.

It ends here.

Yeah.

So that was pretty common.

Another thing, what about regimate?

Regimate would not have touched this.

No.

That would have been like taking water.

Yeah.

It would have been pouring a cup of water on the fire.

Yeah.

Great intention.

How long did it take her to go back to normal levels?

Like where you saw in her behavior and her everyday handling, where she acted more normal?

She was pretty quick.

Once she doesn't feel very good, she becomes very easy to handle.

— Post-Surgery: Eight Weeks Back to Riding

She had, I think, from the start from her surgery to riding again, I think it was eight weeks.

That's quick.

Oh, wow.

It was actually pretty quick.

Most of it was just the healing of the incision site.

She had, I think it was like three weeks of strict stall rest and then a month of individual turnout and then back out with her friends and just kind of being careful seeing how she feels.

And when I got back on her, she's still, she's a bucker, but she wasn't, you know, louder about it.

She was just kind of lazy and I'm like, I think this is maybe her normal.

She's just a little bit slow.

Oh, man.

I remember you telling me last night that it was so big and you could actually see the.

Yeah.

So from the point of her ilium to the middle of her back, I don't know what the spine, where you can actually see, you know, the skin was raised a little bit.

And it, you could almost see the volleyball.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So right before she had surgery and, you know, I'm trying to deal with her behavior and everything, she couldn't even handle a soft brush on her right above her ovary.

It was extremely painful for her.

It was impinging and, you know, it, I cannot stress this enough.

It was very painful for her.

Oh, buddy.

And, you know, as women, if you have any sort of cycle issues, you know how painful truly it can be.

So I think one thing I'm kind of trying to like work through, and I know the answer is probably going to be like, we don't know, but I feel like it got so bad so quick.

Yeah.

And I think maybe this, you know, bringing it back to this podcast is like, how can our horses tell us until we can hear, or not until we can hear, like, so we can hear, and sometimes it takes until they're shouting at us, for us to be able to hear them and say, like, all right, we've got to get to the bottom of this.

Horses aren't dramatic for no reason.

Less, yeah.

I think it had just reached, you know, a pinnacle.

She couldn't handle it anymore.

Yeah.

And yeah, I don't know how long it was brewing.

I like to say, you know, maybe it was brewing for years, and that's why she was always a little bit terrible.

Unhinged.

Yeah.

So not really.

I mean, it probably was.

Let's, you know, we'll give her a minute to think about that on.

Yeah.

Like, that's when they're raised in such stressful conditions, there's bound to be some kind of hormonal dysfunction, right?

Yeah.

And, you know, she had an interesting, after it was removed, not that she wasn't perfectly fixed, you know, there was still this incision site that was really, you know, stiff and sore.

— Lingering Stiffness at the Incision Site Post-Op

And she kind of, she expected it to hurt.

She expected the saddle to, you know, not feel good.

She expected working to be painful.

And as an amateur without all of the answers, it was hard for me to understand, all right, what's learned behavior?

Are we still in pain?

What can we do to get past this?

And maybe, so I still struggle with that.

But that was an interesting thing in her recovery.

I think we all do.

I think that's even hard for the pros.

I mean, because that's a very challenging thing to tease apart.

Yeah.

To extrapolate those pieces.

So I'd give yourself some grace on that.

Well, yeah, for real.

Yeah.

Do we feel that this is like a thing of the past now, or is there a concern for anything in the future?

Oh, good question, good question.

Also, I asked the vet, and I was like, he said it would be extremely unlikely for it to affect her other ovary.

He's like, she should go back to cycling like normal, and she has, I mean, she goes into heat, and she's really, she's a typical, you know, not, I know when she's in heat.

Yeah.

I'm aware.

We're all aware.

But she did go back to normal.

He did say, I think, you know, it would take a couple months for the testosterone to fully leave her body and work itself the way out, and I have not had her levels tested since.

I can't really see a need.

Okay.

Did he mention that?

It's pretty clear when they're off.

Yeah.

Okay.

Especially with how she presented.

But is that, well, I guess that's not a recommendation.

It's just like to follow up, like to make it part of her normal routine, to make sure her levels are appropriate.

Yeah.

No, it was kind of just a, hey, let's remove this and carry on.

I like that.

Yeah.

Knock, knock, knock.

Yeah.

So it was kind of just a one and done.

I was like, all right, now we got this figured out, her saddle fits, let's move on.

I had about nine months.

How long?

So birth, the next.

Before the next.

The next thing.

Fun little interesting tidbit.

Do we want to move on to that?

Yeah.

Go for it.

God bless.

She's just been kind of a difficult horse in general.

She wears her emotions.

So going through that.

So this was in May 2023, right around April 2024.

I'm talking like 11 months.

I was like, oh dear.

She's just, she didn't feel quite right.

She just kind of had some other little oddities going on, and it was another kind of rotating lameness.

And I sent videos to you, and I was like, I just don't understand what's happening.

I put her back on some anti-inflammatories.

I was like, maybe she's just cycling and going through something again, or maybe the incision site is bothering her.

— Second-Guessing Everything: Cycling or Cyst Recurrence?

Like, I kind of want to blame everything on something I did know about.

And then she came up dead lame, like lame, lame.

And it was like the day before a horse show.

I'm sorry to laugh.

It's just...

Oh, it's funny.

It's funny.

Hey, we got to laugh or we'll cry.

That's true.

And I had signed up for...

It was like her first schooling dressage show and I was really excited about it.

That's right.

Yeah.

We were having a good time.

She came up laying the day before.

And I'll go into this story.

We went with Lindsay, who you met last night.

Oh, yeah.

And her mare, Mystere, that's Ophelia's best friend.

I was like, you know what?

We'll do a ride along and it'll just be exposure.

I've got a vet appointment next week.

You know, I don't think it'll hurt.

She was also in regular turnout.

So anyway, we go to the show, we unload her.

She looks fantastic, by the way.

Again, in muscle tone, she's looking good.

She's looking good.

She wasn't feeling good, but she was looking good.

And my friend, she rides her test, and we go back to leave and go home, and Ophelia won't load.

She will not get on the trailer, and it's downpouring rain, you know, a torrential downpour that the south knows.

And we could not get this horse back on the trailer.

And she's always been an easy loader.

And we'll circle back to why she wouldn't get on the trailer.

We had to get someone to help us, and we had to actually pick her leg up one at a time, like her front leg and then the other front leg.

So she wasn't afraid to load.

She just physically couldn't.

Yeah, she physically couldn't.

Was she getting emotional during this?

Um, no, not really.

She was just like, no.

I flat out refused to get on the trailer, which was really interesting.

So we'll come back to that.

The next thing I noticed was I think I had made a loud noise, and she picked, and we knew it was that front left.

She picked up her leg and was twitching.

This was back at the barn.

Yeah, back at the barn.

And so I took a video, and I like banged the saddle rack on the wall, and she would freeze, pick up her front leg.

That was obviously in a lot of pain and shake.

She would like hover it over the ground, maybe like an inch above the ground, perhaps?

Yeah.

And super odd.

So, anyway, we call another vet out, or, you know, the same practice, but he comes out and he's looking at her, and he's like, hey, this horse is wildly lame.

And I went, yeah, I know.

And we tried some nerve blocks, we x-rayed her to heck and back, we x-rayed her neck, thinking maybe it was there.

She didn't respond to any nerve blocks in her legs.

Clean neck, by the way.

Yeah.

— Clean Radiographs & Ophelia's Neck Looks Great

Actually, probably like the cleanest rads he's seen, right?

Yeah, he said her neck looks great.

I'm like, oh, cool.

Oh, yeah.

So, we x-rayed her knee down.

There's no heat or swelling.

Can't find it.

It's not in the hoof.

None of the nerve blocks work.

I showed him the video of her twitching.

He's like, wow, I've never seen that before.

Can you send that to me?

Can I have that?

Yeah.

We're just spit balling.

I was like, hey, the next step in the diagnostic process was maybe go in for a bone scan.

He's like, I'm not sure this is bone-related, but we can at least find something.

By the way, have you had her titer's tested for EPM?

Because she was twitching and it's just some weird things.

I was like, no, but hey, we're on the test.

Let's figure it out.

I drop her off at the vet clinic again one time.

The reason she wouldn't load, we had to slowly get her on my trailer again.

We drop her off for a bone scan.

She gets a bone scan.

They call me and I was like, they said, hey, we don't know exactly what it is, but it's in her elbow.

Which I don't know if y'all have ever had a horse with an elbow issue, but not something common that you hear a lot of.

Not really.

Well, we'll circle back to that.

Keep going.

Yeah.

They're like, okay, so it's in her elbow.

Once the radiation kind of leaves her system, and the way that a bone scan works is they send you a picture of it, and it almost pings as a hotspot when there's, for lack of a better term, something wrong with the bones.

That's cool.

I've never seen one.

Yeah.

Do they walk into, I should probably just research this, but what's the setup?

That's a good question.

You're not allowed to see it because there's a lot of radiation involved.

So they have to be inundated with radiation, and then they're standing, and it's some sort of imaging sneak.

Okay.

Like a giant when you go to the dentist?

Yeah.

I think, and please don't take this as if I wasn't allowed to watch.

I asked, and I'm not a vet.

A vet could explain this better.

But it was a cool, I think it was about two grand.

It was not cheap, not done.

But I thought maybe something's wrong with her hooves, something's wrong with her neck, or maybe it is this kissing spot.

I just didn't know.

It ended up being her shoulder, and the vet called me, and he's like, hey, best guess is she fractured her elbow, her radius, and we're going to try and take some radiographs of it.

They tried a lot of different angles, but you're sometimes going through the chest and it's high up.

It's a very difficult.

Yeah, it's hard to get.

It's a hard thing to radiograph, so we couldn't actually get it on camera.

— Fractured Elbow or Deep Bone Bruise: Hard to Radiograph

And the other option that it was was like a deep bone bruise.

So it was either a fractured elbow or a deep bone bruise, one or the other.

So come to find out, that's why she wouldn't get on the trailer.

She had a broken bone.

She couldn't do it.

She physically couldn't do it.

Yeah.

So that and also her titer's test for EPM came back super high, like extremely high.

You're getting a lot of information.

Yeah.

The horse, he was really cool about it.

He was like, broken elbow, EPM.

I'm like, cool.

Is she going to be rideable?

He's like, yeah, she should be fine.

Okay.

All right.

So one thing at a time.

Okay.

So the elbow, are we thinking that she fell, she was kicked?

I asked him and he was like, there's no way to know.

I would just say she probably got kicked.

Was it a clean break or was it jagged?

Who knows?

We didn't get to see it.

You couldn't see close enough.

Oh, that's right.

That's really what you just so eloquently explained.

Yeah.

I wish, but she's in a pasture with good buddies.

I don't know.

It doesn't seem likely to me that she was kicked.

She could have just done some nonsense.

They do the dumbest things.

Let's be real.

So true.

You're right.

Let's not even.

Who knows?

I wish she could tell us in the Queen's English exactly what she did.

But yeah, fractured elbow and that recovery was horrible.

That was three months of stall rest on the down low, or not on the down low, on the high low.

Then a month and a recheck, a month of solitary turnout and small round pen, and then back to her friends.

The interesting thing about it being an injury to the bone is once it's healed, it's healed.

The rehab process is more just getting them back in shape and legged up rather than slowly working.

That's true.

Yeah.

So for the last two summers, my girl has been out.

First the ovary, she was in star rest, not doing anything.

Then last summer, broken elbow, star rest, not doing anything.

I think she doesn't like the summer.

I don't think she likes the south.

In addition to the elbow, it was the EPM.

We treated that, I guess we can flip over to the next page.

Yeah.

EPM is a little more, people know a little bit about that.

It says, it's our equine protozoal myoencephalitis.

Thank you for writing that down.

Yeah.

It's a mouthful.

It's a neurological disorder that comes from possum feces.

Please don't hurt possums.

We love possums.

They're just the messengers.

They're so good.

They're so cute.

That's my plug.

Relocate them.

Yes.

That's my plug for possums.

Please be nice to them.

Okay.

Keep going.

Yeah.

The interesting thing about that is, all the typical signs of EPM like loss of coordination, muscle atrophy, just neurologic symptoms, were not present with her other than the weird twitching.

— EPM Diagnosis: Atypical Presentation & Twitching

That was her only symptom.

The only other thing that we can maybe point out is her body worker.

As she's going through her spine, she said it was almost like hypermobile.

Really?

Yeah.

She's like, Oh, interesting.

The second or third horse I've worked with with EPM, like as a diagnosis, that had this kind of odd modality.

Yes.

Does she still do that now?

No.

That's one of the things we do keep an eye on is, so she was treated with protozoal, which is a feed through supplement and it was pretty easy.

She's an easy eater.

One month on and then like five or six months where it's like a half dose twice a week.

And we just kind of keep an eye on that.

Sometimes I bang a noise around her just to make sure she's not twitching.

Oh, jeez.

But you know, she didn't really have any other clear symptoms.

And I asked the vet, I was like, how do I know if the medicine is working for her?

She didn't have a ton of symptoms to begin with.

He was like, well, she might not be lame.

And that was all he said.

Oh, cool.

But don't get me wrong, I do really, I really appreciate him.

Always appreciate your vets.

He answered my texts.

He was very level-headed when I was like, hey, I think I can freak out a little bit right now.

What are we doing here?

My turn.

It's my turn.

She's in her stall.

I can freak out.

So.

Well, what were his thoughts on like, because I know EPM, the testing can be pretty nebulous because you can be exposed to it.

So like just exposure itself is going to cause the labs to be within like a pathological level.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are symptomatic.

Yeah.

So I think every horse, at least in the south, has been exposed.

They have some, I guess it's called a titer's test.

Yeah.

It's kind of pointless outside of clinical signs.

Her clinical signs were minor or odd, I guess, so to speak.

But her titers test, her levels, I think if it's greater than 4,000, I have it somewhere, it's a document, so I'm not going to fish through it.

If it's greater than 4,000, and in addition to clinical signs, it's kind of a- Hers was 16,000.

Whoa.

Okay, I digress.

As the vet said, he said, I hesitate to say this is what it is, but when you have levels this high, it's kind of a slam dunk.

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was like, all right.

The twitching, I didn't realize that twitching was a part of it, but it does make sense.

I mean, typically we look for the lack of coordination, muscle atrophy, maybe some ear drooping, some facial asymmetry, stuff like that, but I didn't really consider twitching, but I mean, that checks out.

— EPM Symptoms Deep Dive: What to Look For

You know, I think it was related to nerves, and this is a neurological disorder.

Well, that checks, yeah.

Yeah, and he was like, well, she just, you know, treat her, bring her back, see how she's doing, and since then, knocking on wood, aside from fitness and, you know, a couple weird little, you know, she's pretty, she can be pretty explosive and spooky, but she's been, she's been sound and trucking along and she's, God, she's an excellent horse to ride when she feels like it.

So what do you do when she feels like it?

What are you doing for her as like continuing support for EPM?

So I had her on an extremely high dose of vitamin E and we treat her, he wants to treat her yearly with a compounded version of that medicine.

He wants to treat her in the spring and it's like a month of just powder added to her feed.

And I can't remember the name off the top of my head.

It's a compounded version of I think Protozil.

Okay.

You guys already did that then?

We already did it.

Okay, cool.

But I think after talking to you, I'm going to change her vitamin E situation.

I think it's worth a shot.

And so like, Kahlan- Say more.

And we'll do an episode on My Mare and all of her stuff, but my vet was explaining to me how a lot of the explosive behaviors and things like that can really be mitigated by doing either Nano E or Elevate, because not all E's are created equal.

And by putting mine on Nano E, we did high dose.

I mean, she chilled out within like five days, which is bananas because she was always on high dose vitamin E.

She was always getting like 6,000, but it was of different brands.

And then...

Yeah, if she's not, if she's getting a synthetic form, she's not getting a usable form, then you're just feeding her expensive powder.

Well, she was on natural.

She's never been on synthetic, but like they're not, even all the naturals aren't created equal.

So I put her on Nano E and sure enough, she chilled out.

And then like the way that Sally explained Ophelia's like explosiveness, I had to, I think I just needed to meet her.

I needed to experience it.

She's a presence.

She is.

I don't know what I did in a past life to have earned this.

She's a cosmic punishment.

Yeah.

I was mean to somebody and she is my sentence.

So I can't in good conscience get rid of her.

I say that like I can't sell her.

She's a lifer.

She's with me forever.

I'm really curious to see how the, like what she does with that vitamin E.

That's like, that really has my little brain running.

I'm curious and I know you're all about diet, Kahlan, and I'm excited to learn more about, you know, all of the ingredients and the way that you talked about it with such passion was really incredible.

— Nutrition, Diet & Managing Ophelia's Complex Health History

And I wish more owners truly knew, like how essential their nutrition is.

And it goes past the shiny coat and healthy muscles.

It, you know, it's so deep.

Mental health, I mean, everything.

That's why I kind of brought it back to, I mean, this is a while ago, but like, I wonder if her upbringing, her like first experiences, the things she was eating first, how her body was moving first, I wonder, we can't know, it's not measurable, how much bearing that has on what story she's had so far.

Yeah, you know, her start to life.

As a very slow racehorse.

So I think moving forward is like kind of a closing note for my Red Mare.

You know, just listening to her, trying to figure out what's bothering her, what has bothered her in the past that maybe she's worried about, her emotional state, her physical state, you know, everything.

Just kind of trying to be on top of it and support her in the best way that I can and part of it is listening to podcasts like this and other educational tools and knowing a thing or two about a lot of things.

Incredible.

Yeah, sounds like you could probably write a book at this point about a lot of things.

Oh, my English teacher said, you write how you talk and I don't like it.

Are you serious?

Yeah, yeah.

Horrible.

Okay, your teacher's a liar.

Sorry, I was educated in Alabama.

Liar.

I'm doing the best I can, but you know.

You're great.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me on and let me talk about one of my favorite topics, which is my beautiful Red Mare.

You love her already.

I mean, I can't wait to meet her.

Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for listening to her.

I'll say it again.

I've said it a million times.

Horses aren't fucking stubborn.

She's not just a bitch.

Something was wrong over and over again, and you listened every time.

And unfortunately, that's your sentence.

So thank you for doing that for her.

It's okay.

I'm paying the tax.

Whether it's not ever that she's being obstinate to be obstinate, they don't have the brain capacity to be stubborn or lazy like that, you know?

I totally agree.

There's a reason, whether it be physical or emotional, and I just have to understand or find a way to get her past it.

And we're doing the best we can.

And as of right now, she still looks incredible.

She's sound.

She ended up exactly where she was supposed to be, and she's taught me the lessons that I needed to learn.

Well, let's get ready for, we got barn time now.

— Closing: Barn Time & Gratitude for Sally's Story

We got barn time, we got- Yeah.

Yeah, go ride, me too.

Yeah, we all go ride.

Let's go lose ourselves in the void that is barn time.

If you or a friend have a topic, story or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission, or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

E4: MFM is a MTHRFKR: Leah part 2

Wed, 02 Jul 2025 03:37:27 GMT

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Myofibrillar Myopathy (MFM) is a muscle disease that disrupts the normal structure of muscle fibers. These abnormalities result in exercise intolerance, mystery/rotating soundness issues, poor performance, weakness, etc. In this episode, Taylor shares her mare's long journey to diagnostics. Turns out, her back was never the issue - it was MFM all along. Listen in to learn more about the presentation, diagnostic process, and management of MFM. Dr. Valberg is the pioneer of equine myopathy research. More information on MFM and her muscle lab available on the Kentucky Equine Research website (www.ker.com) Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoof Care Practicioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook!

— Previously on The Red Mare Project: Leah's KS Recap

I'm gonna hit the thing.

I'm a riff, just go.

Previously on The Red Mare Project, in our last episode, we talked about Taylor's mare and dove into her diagnosis of kissing spine as well as its surgery and rehab.

Fuck.

I didn't mean to say its, I meant to say into her, into the surgery and its rehab.

Oh, that's okay.

They're hard to do.

It took me at least 20 minutes to do the first one.

Okay.

Previously on The Red Mare Project, in our last episode, we talked about Taylor's Mare and dove into her diagnosis of kissing spine as well as the surgery and its rehab.

Today, we will be telling the other half of her story.

This is Leah, Part 2, Myofibrillar Myopathy.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

Someone has to jump.

Oh, shit.

Okay.

All right.

So, do you want to talk about the diagnostics of it?

Like, we know that after you're kissing spines, rehab and everything, it wasn't what you wanted it to be.

So then what was the next step?

Like, what did you, where was the detective work?

So, kind of everywhere.

All right.

So, we did the surgery, which, you know, and then we did the rehab.

I did all the things and, you know, I followed everything like I was supposed to.

And this is kind of where things got a bit bleak because by the time we were back up and running and we, you know, quote unquote, should have been in a situation where you never have to think about it ever again.

I had the same exact horse.

So I was like, I were drac...

Drac at the butt.

We're back at the drawing board.

And just at that point, we just, we kind of just limped through the next couple of years.

Like she was fine, but not great.

She wasn't feeling happy about life.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

We just, we really just kind of like coasted through on fumes and, you know, we, I think it was probably over a series of like what, three years or so.

And we did a bunch of injections, as you do, thinking that, you know, that's going to be the magic bullet.

Yeah, we'll just do the next thing the vet says and then that is going to be it.

Exactly.

So we did SI, we did Hawks, we did her neck, and we actually did her back at one point as well.

And this is the part that kind of got me.

And it, you know, I should have been more educated on this even like before.

I made the decision to do the surgery.

But the way that the surgeon explained it to me, who did the checkup, he said, even though we've taken out the dorsal spinous prosthesis that are in contact, he said there's still disease below the surface.

And I was like, well, you may have told me that.

And I'm not going to say that he didn't tell me because it's...

You were in another brain space.

Yeah, yeah, so trying to get myself grace on that.

And he probably told me, but like...

So if, you know, when you're looking at the spine, you have the dorsal spinous prosthesis, and then lower down, you have the transverse prosthesis, and those can also hit.

— Kissing Spine Deep Dive: DSPs & Transverse Processes

So I think that's what he was trying to explain to me.

Oh, okay.

Minor oversight on my part.

Everyone else did what they were supposed to do.

There's just a minor oversight on my part, which I think is why I'm, like, now I'm, like, adamant about client education.

Yeah.

Because...

And you're a badass note taker, my friend.

Well, it's because I've had oversight such as this.

So...

Yeah, yeah.

Now it's like, I've tried to turn that mishap into, like, a superpower.

But anyway, he was explaining that there's probably still some disease process going on, like, further down.

And I was like, well, what do we do?

What you got?

And he said, just inject it.

Okay.

And nothing.

We just kind of kept coasting through on fumes.

And eventually we ran out of fumes.

And we kind of hit that same impasse that we did before she was diagnosed, like before I took her to the hospital to get her diagnosed, where we had that period of like six months where I was like, I don't have a horse.

She's not sound.

She's not comfortable.

She's not good.

And all of that kind of compounded and resurfaced again.

And we hit another window of like, I don't have a horse again.

And we tested for a few things.

We tested for Lyme.

That came back negative.

Again, all the series of injections were pretty fruitless.

And then we tested her for PPID because at that point, she was 15?

Yes.

Yeah. 15, 16.

Yeah, yeah, 15.

Yeah.

So she was, you know, she was of age to drive the bus kind of thing.

And once they hit double digits, I think it's worth looking.

Yeah.

I think I read actually on the percent packet that one in five over the age of 15 will develop PPID.

And it's like a little younger and younger now.

It's like horses at 12 and 13 are already fully symptomatic, which is so scary.

That's bonkers.

We will do a whole, yeah, we'll do a show on that because we have a whole tinfoil hat lecture series on all of that.

So yeah, we tested her for PPID and it came back borderline.

And the symptoms of PPID that we were kind of curious about was just decreased performance, muscle wasting.

She was kind of pot belly at the time.

Just flitty too.

Yeah.

Oh, how shall I forget that?

Jesus, Taylor.

She was, yeah, her feet were just like not cool.

Half the bottom, she wasn't awesome.

Yeah, just subpar.

Subpar.

Damn.

I won't tell her you said that.

Please don't.

Which is not there.

And so we were like, all right, let's test her, came back like maybe borderline.

And if you go back to like the ECIR group, which is the equine, Cushing's and insulin resistance group, Dr.

Kellan runs it, they really advocate for treating the symptoms more so than the numbers.

Because it's such a hard number to chase too.

Like even if you test at the right time of year, you stem them, like, there's, you know, different times of year, there's better ways to test or vice versa, it's so hard.

— Lyme Disease Testing: Timing, Limitations & Frustrations

Like, I just did one for Loki in the spring, and I, like, it was a TRH dim test, and everything came back great.

His insulin was normal, his ACTH was normal, but like, never don't be suspicious.

Right?

Because even if the numbers, whatever the numbers say, like, you can't hang your hat on it.

Exactly.

So you did treat the symptoms?

We did, yeah.

So we started her on percent, and this was in the fall.

And that was also kind of another, I don't want to say red herring.

But a contributing thing.

Yeah.

Like, again, I'm not a vet, but the way I see it, if they're, like, mega symptomatic in the fall during the seasonal rise, I'm like, well, maybe...

It's pretty safe to say.

Maybe that's a factor to consider.

Yeah.

Just throwing that out there.

So, we started her on Percent, and it's...

She seemed to kind of improve on it.

She seemed to do pretty well.

Um, and then, just, you know, long story short, a couple months after that, she started to get really spooky.

Like, big, big, big spooks.

Not just when you were writing her, like, out in the pasture, panic.

Like, not her same person.

Her personality changed.

There was, yeah, there was a chip that there was a...

Something happened in the Matrix, and they were full-blown.

Like, you said panic.

Like, they were actual panic attacks.

That's probably really hard for you to watch.

It was quite...

I mean, it was terrifying, because I'm like, well, what do we do?

Yeah.

And when she would have these fits, it was like, the lights are on, but nobody's home.

Yeah.

Like, no...

What am I looking for?

She just had, like, no self-preservation.

There was no thought.

She would run through a fence or some shit if you...

Like, that was a fear.

Oh, yeah.

And that, I mean, so that started to happen, and I didn't really have any guidance on that, because it's...

Most people...

I mean, I, you know, I spoke with the vet about it at the time, and she was thinking, like, well, is she in any pain?

And I was...

Probably.

I don't...

I don't know.

She has...

I mean, she's been injected in everything.

Like, everything's being catered to, and it's...

We're still at this impasse.

We're just chasing...

Our tail.

Yeah.

And so, that was the thought on that.

And I was like, well, you know, you're probably not wrong.

And I held on to that.

But I got to thinking a little bit, and this goes back to my psych world, and I'll try to make this not as nerdy as I want to make it.

So, Percent is...

It's a dopamine agonist.

So, the whole point is to increase the level of dopamine in the system.

So, horses with PPID, they have a decline in dopamine production, and dopamine is what plays a really big role in regulating hormone levels, especially ACTH, which is a hormone that we're trying to control in PPID, or Cushing's for...

That's another thing we call it.

— PPID (Equine Cushing's): Dopamine, ACTH & Pergolide

So, in PPID, the lack of dopamine is what disrupts the regulation, which leads to the overproduction of ACTH.

So, by giving Pergolide, or the brand name Percent, it increases the level of dopamine, which allows ACTH to regulate.

Yep.

So, that's fact.

That's fact how that works.

The human side that I'm kind of like grabbing at straws about...

So, Pergolide was actually originally created for humans with Parkinson's.

Parkinson's is characterized by low levels of dopamine.

So, in humans, dopamine also helps with motor function.

So, like smoothing the movements that we do, which is why in Parkinson's, low levels, key characteristic is tremors, because the dopamine isn't there to smooth out the movements, right?

So, they give Parkinson's folks dopamine agonist.

Now, if the dose is incorrect and they get too much, and this is rare, but it can happen, high levels of dopamine are linked with schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, this is where it gets kind of wild.

So, schizophrenia is a disconnect from reality.

It's a psychotic disorder characterized by delusions and hallucinations.

So, in rare occasions, if you give someone with Parkinson's a dopamine agonist and the dose is wrong and they get too much dopamine, they can't start to experience psychotic symptoms.

So, I have no idea if this translates to the horse world, but the algorithm made sense.

It's the same damn drug.

So, in my mind, I was like, well, maybe she was borderline in the high season.

So, maybe in the low season of ACTH, this was enough to kind of...

Throw her over the edge and to the other side.

Yeah.

And again, it's a bold ass claim, but...

No, but it makes sense.

I mean, you know, like I said earlier, correlation does not equal causation.

But if what you're seeing before your very eyes is telling you that that's the situation, then what else can you do but try to take her off of it?

So, when you did that, did you titrate her down or did you just take her off at Cold Turkey?

Like, what was the process there?

Oh, shit.

I know I went through it with you and I don't remember.

I know, because you were like, you were on the front lines with me on that.

Yeah.

Because I didn't really have...

I mean, I spoke with the vet about it and it was kind of like...

The response was, and I don't blame them at all.

I mean, it's super bizarre.

I think I did titrate down.

I want to say I did that.

I was responsible.

I think you did.

I think I remember when we were texting back and forth about it, and I was doing the very last stall on the right at the barn where I just came from.

Isn't that wild how they become core memories like that?

Well, we were bouncing.

You were like, is this crazy?

I was like, I don't think so, but what the hell do I know?

And you were like, I don't think this is crazy.

Should we just, I mean, there's plenty of vets who tell you to treat with pergolide according to symptoms.

— Treating PPID by Symptoms vs. Bloodwork

Just go backwards.

Yeah.

And she even said, you can try taking her off of it and see what happens, so.

Did it help?

How much did it help?

I think it made a difference.

I mean, she settled down pretty quickly, and I mean, that kind of solved that, but then it kind of came back.

It started to come back.

But we'll table the spooks in a little bit, because the spooks, I think, are a bigger piece.

Yeah.

I think that's actually like a huge factor.

So throughout all this time, from the surgery until today, her biggest symptom was body soreness, just mega stiff.

And I even had one girl get on her, really great rider, wonderful.

And I was like, you know, just hop on.

Tell me what you see.

What are you feeling?

What you got?

Because at this point, like, if you ride the same horse...

Oh, please.

You need variety sometimes.

Absolutely.

You know, to kind of, like, freshen the palate.

Absolutely.

So I was like, hey, girl, just hop on.

And she said, Taylor, this mare feels like she eat broomsticks for breakfast.

So mean.

I would be so offended.

I was like, well, shit.

Okay.

But that's, I mean, that's pretty accurate.

It was, it was, I mean, as much as it stung, it was actually really helpful.

Yeah.

Because you knew it wasn't just you.

It was certainly wasn't behavioral.

Wasn't anything that you could necessarily pin down.

It was just like stiff.

Yeah.

Stiff.

Broomstick.

Yeah.

And you just, our warmups were a train wreck.

Like, I, now I have it down to a science, but our warmups were so slow and just, she'd stick her head up in the air and kind of like, oh yeah, she would start rooting with her head up in the air.

And she did, you know, the little pony patter, the little, the like little dachshund shuffle that ponies do?

Eight.

Yeah.

I know that's such a weird way.

It kind of makes it sound cute.

Like a pony patter, like a little dachshund.

No, but I'm seeing like a little gray horse with a kid, the helmet that doesn't fit, jogging around, kind of pissed off with her head in the air.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

Those were our warm ups.

That sucks.

And it was, I didn't know it, but she would eventually work out of it a little bit.

It was just really rough.

Yeah.

It was embarrassing.

Like I couldn't...

Look at me.

Literally.

So we almost got to a point where we were only riding when like no one was around.

Oh.

Or like if I went to my trainer's farm for a lesson, I would be the first ride in the arena so people wouldn't watch us warm up.

Oh, Taylor.

Because I didn't, I just...

No, I think.

And then part of me was like, shit, she's not having a good, no one's having a good time right now.

It's not fun if she's not having fun.

That's part of being the kind of horse woman that you are.

If she's not having a good time, you're not going to have a good time.

I think that's like honorable.

— Taylor's Emotional Breaking Point with Leah

Well, that's where I really got to think in because I was like, this is new.

She hates it.

She hates it and her eyes were just dull.

She wasn't bright and we were missing the target on something.

In my mind, I was like, yeah, she might not like this job, but there's no way she doesn't like it this much.

No, and she just enjoys, I mean, I've seen you on her.

It's like clicking together and suddenly she's super horse.

That wouldn't change depending on the sport.

That's exactly what my thinking was.

Like there's no way that it's going to be that big of a difference.

And anyway, we just again, just kind of kept coasting through on fumes, limping through and well, not limping, she never limped, but you know.

She did everything else.

I'll sput that.

And so she was super body stiff, really sore.

Her feet were still not, I mean, they were improving.

She was in shoes at this point.

I think she's been in shoes consistently for about two and a half years now.

That sounds right.

I think so.

Yeah.

And but I feel like I didn't, I haven't gotten them like confidently, like these are these are feet that I'm proud of.

Yeah.

Until maybe like a year and a half ago.

Yeah.

And so she's off pergola, still not right, in pain.

Did you call the vet at this point?

Is she, she's not spooking anymore.

She's still bucking?

Yeah, she's still bucking.

Okay.

Still bucking, very sore.

Arcanar.

Oh, that's an important thing to note.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Arcanar was really, she couldn't hold it.

Like she would fall back into trot or she would just like run away?

She would just fall back into trot.

She would just fall apart.

Oh.

Which in hindsight, now that I understand the disease more, Sense.

That's like a huge factor.

So, and she was never really lame.

Because I feel like when we say lame, we mean like a limb lameness.

Yeah.

But body lameness, I mean, yeah, there's a argument to be made there. 100 percent.

For sure.

Hurty is hurty.

Exactly.

And I think she really was struggling with some body lameness that was so global that it wasn't able to be really isolated into one piece of anatomy.

So I feel like when you went on the after, at this point, like you're obviously devastated this is going on, blah, blah.

There was a point at which you had spoken to someone else and they suggested something or was this your own rabbit hole that you went down and then dove into diagnostics more?

Yeah, I actually spoke with a friend of mine who she's a groom for like a big fancy schmancy massage farm, and one of the horses there who is just a super cool guy.

He's since retired, he's gone up to the Grand Prix and has a few titles at the Grand Prix, really cool guy.

Awesome.

And this horse was all of a sudden had just someone flipped a switch on him, and he was having some really difficult challenges.

Long story short, he was diagnosed with MFM, which is myofibular myopathy.

— MFM Diagnosis: Myofibrillar Myopathy Explained

So at this point in the story, I'm desperate for anything.

I'm grabbing the bottom of the barrel, whatever weird diagnosis that can be thrown at us, let's get at it.

And I learned about myofibular myopathy, and I started reading through it.

Holy shit, did it fit the bill.

Yeah.

The timeline, the breeding, the- Yeah, because it's more common in warm bloods, right?

Okay.

More common in warm bloods in Arabians also.

Same, but- I know, right?

Okay.

But warm bloods, and this sounds so shitty, but it seems to be more common, like the more well-bred.

No, that tracks.

Yeah.

Which is like the weirdest flex of all time.

I mean, hey, look at the quarter horses.

Fair point.

So the way that it was explained, all right, so MFM, it's an exertional muscle disorder, which is abnormal buildup of desmin in the muscle tissue.

So that pretty much means if you're looking at a muscle cell, there's myofibrils in there, little tiny myofibrils, which allow the muscle to contract and relax to full capacity.

And then if you almost think of it as like, if you think of the muscle cell as like a factory, the myofibrils are like machines that kind of keep everything going.

And then the desmen are, you can almost think of them as like scaffolding that holds everything exactly where it's supposed to be, so it can do its job how it's supposed to.

So desmen in an MFM horse or an MFM muscle, or however you want to say that, the scaffolding or the desmen, it misfolds and it starts to clump together, which causes problems in how the muscle can actually operate.

So it can't fully contract or relax to its full capacity.

But it's working hard at the same time.

Yeah, it's working like double time.

So it just results in extreme muscle fatigue and weakness because it can't do everything how it's supposed to because the scaffolding, the desmen, is just locking everything where it's not supposed to be.

Okay, gumming up the works.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I started looking to it.

It fit the bill incredibly.

And I reached out to my vet immediately because bless her heart.

She was really hanging with us through this.

And she was in the trenches and I sent it to her, said, hey, this has to be it.

I think this is it, sister.

I think we're here.

And she's like, well, okay, let's do it.

And we did a muscle biopsy and we pulled it from the hamstring and it came back negative.

Whomp, whomp, which, dude, that shattered me.

Of course, that's heartbreaking.

I thought that was the answer.

She fit the bill so well.

The explosive behavior, the stiffness, the difficulty maintaining the gait, the rotating lameness, bodies, like everything, just to a T.

I was like, this is, I don't know what to do.

And my vet who was so supportive during this whole time and she kind of was just like, I don't want to say she threw her hands up.

— The Vet's Honest Reaction & Taylor's Desperation

But she was like, damn, sorry.

I really thought it was that too.

Yeah.

And it was kind of like, oh.

Now what?

Yeah.

So I ended up reaching out to the vet who diagnosed that gelding I just spoke about.

I reached out to that vet and I was like, maybe just fresh eyes.

See what we get.

So I had him come out and he looked at her.

I probably looked like a psychopath.

Probably.

You didn't even hear it.

You're like, yeah, you did.

I wrote up, it must have been three pages of her entire history.

Everything that she eats, everything we injected and when the spook started.

Full chart, full medical chart.

In this man, I still to this day don't know if he was just being gracious or if he was just trying to find a way to politely be like, oh shit, this is going to be a case.

But I handed it to him because I was like, I don't know what to say, but take it.

And he sat down and was like, this is actually really helpful.

And I don't know if he was lying to my face or not.

It's fine, either way.

But he sat down, he read the whole thing and he looked at me and said, well, the good thing is you don't have MFM.

And I was like, okay.

But what?

And he said, I think I actually want to check her out for a vitamin E deficiency.

Right.

Because a lot of warm bloods, not just warm bloods, but a lot of horses, especially today, I found.

Yeah.

Well, the grass now sucks.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

They have a higher need than their basic 1000 to maintain life.

Oh, interesting.

Oh, that makes sense with the grass being shit now.

Grass is shit.

They're under more oxidative stress.

They just have a higher need.

Wow.

You just made that sound so achievable.

Yeah. smartfact.com.

We got products.

Incredible.

Okay.

So he said, I think I want to do a muscle biopsy to explore that as an option.

And I was like, well, she gets vitamin E, which famous last words.

Yep.

And he said, well, I get that she's on it, but there's certain...

It may not be the right form and it may not be the right volume.

Yeah.

All those things.

And so he said, let's go ahead and do another muscle biopsy.

All right.

Great.

And he said, I want to scoper.

And in my mind...

Oh, my God.

I totally forgot.

I know.

I totally forgot.

So this was...

I like now have to catch myself when...

I hear other horse people say this, because in the moment when this vet said, let's scoper, I was like, but she's such a calm horse.

She doesn't really seem anxious.

Why would she have ulcers?

And he just kind of looked at me and he was so reassuring.

He said, just let me look.

She shouts sometimes.

Oh, that's sweet.

Let's just look.

And he was so gracious.

This mare came back with grade four.

Yeah, she was fucked up.

In the back of his mind, I could tell now after the fact, I know he was like, Taylor, just let me do my job.

Just shut up.

Grade 40.

Yeah.

And he was in pain.

Oh my God.

— Muscle Biopsy Results: Some of the Worst Seen

And he even said, and this is not a dramatic man.

He's very stoic and he was like, these were some of the worst I've seen.

Wow.

So.

Well, if you think about it, like she's having body pain, just because you're feeding her perfectly and she's got all the fit, you're supporting her the best you can, but pain is incredibly stressful.

She's an internalizer.

Like Ren was the same way.

He could be literally having the worst, most painful day of his life and you would not know it.

He would make himself sick over it.

But he was so stoic and she's kind of a bad bitch.

Like, she doesn't strike me as a mare who whines.

No, she's not whiny.

So she was just like literally gritting her teeth and making herself sick over it.

I think that's such a good thing to mention is that a lot of horses do internalize.

I think we kind of, as humans, forget that if a horse is quiet, that doesn't mean that they're comfortable.

Yeah, they're not being peaceful.

They might just be suffering in silence.

Yeah, well, and just know your individual horse's personality.

If there, I know a mare that is, if a fly looks at her wrong, she says, ow, I'm dying.

And my horse, you could cut a leg off and he'd still want to go play at full fucking speed.

You just have to know where your horse is.

Yeah, for sure.

So it's a good thing that you did.

And she had, so you treated her for ulcers.

I imagine that started immediately.

Yes While you were waiting for this muscle biopsy to come back.

And the muscle biopsy said?

MFM.

Damn.

So I actually remember, I was sitting at, this was the Gerd Hirschman Clinic when he came in 2023, and I was signed up to do it.

And she was in such a place, I reached out to the host who's a friend of mine, and I was like, hey, I'm sorry, I got to sell my spot.

It's not going to happen.

She can't do it.

I'm not going to make the source do it.

I told her that, and she was like, Taylor, it's cool.

I'll handle the spot.

But the vet called me when I was actually at the symposium, and he said, Taylor, I have your answer.

We have grade four, and she does have MFM.

Was it like the weirdest feeling of relief, but also panic and like, I'm so devastated, but also, holy shit, yes, I have a diagnosis?

All of the above.

Yeah, that's heavy.

Because it was, I mean, I did have the answer, but the part that really kind of like we were told, he said it wasn't going to be MFM.

Yeah, you had already a negative diagnosis, and he brought home the fact, oh, thank goodness it's not that.

Yeah.

And suddenly it is.

So now you've got this to contend with again.

So that's great.

That's terrible.

Did you spend your two days crying?

That's great.

That's terrible.

Like, you are such a superhero, a superwoman, because like I told you with Lowkey's story, I spent a solid 48 hours sobbing after I had the vet out the second or third time.

And I could not, like, you know, I put my big girl panties back on, I figured the shit out.

— Grief, Resilience & No Time to Feel Sorry for Yourself

But you don't have that downtime where you just feel really bad for yourself and like eat a chocolate treat and cry.

You just kind of go right into cycle mode, researching and like getting onto it.

That's amazing.

I mean, I didn't really have a choice.

I mean, she was so uncomfortable and- You dove in.

I dove in.

But this vet was, he was really supportive because he had just diagnosed- Oh, he had just got it, yeah.

Yeah.

So, and actually, apparently before my mare was diagnosed, she, I think he had maybe seven or eight cases again before her.

It's contagious.

So, no, it's not, guys.

Don't, don't, listen, that's not, that's not true at all.

Don't panic.

That's not true at all.

It is maybe through greeting, if you say it that way.

I mean, yeah, okay.

There's an argument.

But anyway, so he was comfortable with, like he knew what to do with this.

Yeah.

So he gave me a diet plan for her, some recommendations.

And I asked him when he called me with the diagnosis, I said, we already did a muscle biopsy.

Why, why did it come back this time?

And he said, because when you pull a biopsy, you're supposed to pull from two sites.

You pull from the tail head and then you pull from the hamstring.

The hamstring biopsy didn't catch it.

It was the tail head caught it.

And also in defense of the first biopsy, you do sometimes need to be a bit mindful of when you pull the biopsy.

That's right.

You've said that before.

She almost needs to be in a flare of feeling like shit, being really uncomfortable for the damage to show better.

Exactly.

So the management protocol, because it's all completely manageable, it's just having a exercise program that works for them and the diet that works for them.

So we'll start with her exercise program, because it's a little bit easier.

Because it is exertional-based, but if she has too much time off too.

Right.

It's muscle use-based.

There it is.

So for her, our strategy that works really well is we do a schooling ride, day one, then we do like a trail ride where we just kind of like dick around in the woods.

I love dicking around in the woods.

The best.

That's a great day.

Oh yeah.

And then day three, we may do just like a long and low kind of day.

Stretchy movement.

Just go and do.

We may pop over a couple fences just for cross-training, for fun, but that's about it.

But if we do three days in a row, and then she'll need another two or three days off.

So is it always three on, two off?

That's like your secret sauce?

I think so.

I mean, of course, like, you know, work schedules is going to kind of get in the way sometimes, but that's tough.

And it's because the thing is, if she goes too long, three days is really good.

She's fine after two days off.

If she's three days off, she's superb.

Oh, okay.

— Exercise Protocol: The Crucial Role of Rest Days

Superb.

But four days off?

Four, when we hit five, seven days.

Everything hurts.

Oh my God.

Do you have anywhere to work her if it's raining there?

Not really.

I mean, I can take her on handwalks.

Yeah.

Which is fine, but she needs to work.

She has to sweat.

Right.

A handwalk isn't going to get her where she needs to be.

Yeah.

So that's tough.

Certain times of the year, the weather doesn't really allow for that.

You just have to get wet.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

So, like, the last two, what was it, like, two weeks ago when we had a full week of rain and I couldn't ride?

Ay-ay-ay.

When I got back on her, yikes.

Swallowed a broom?

Ay-ay-ay.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was rough.

Well, I think, I feel like at some point during that week, you did a couple of handwalks with her in her outfit.

I don't know if you did Equiband or if you did the Eagle Pro.

I don't know if you have the Eagle Pro.

We talked about that.

She wore the Equiband, just the belly band.

Yeah.

A little bit of sit-ups walking around.

That's perfect.

Yeah.

It gets her there and it's better than just sitting around and doing nothing for the whole time.

Yeah, of course, especially like, her paddock is beautifully sloped, but it's not hard work.

She's not going to get that work naturally, as most horses aren't.

So, man, that really keeps you honest, huh?

I mean, I'm so grateful that we have a plan and we know what works, but it is a very, I hate to say it because I'm so grateful for her, but it's demanding.

Yeah.

Talk about the diet because it's really, it's intimidating to me because all I know about it is the opposite of what I want to do.

It's, and I mean, big same.

But I think the reason why she was so symptomatic when she was first diagnosed is because her diet that she was on was the literal opposite of what she needed.

So, you know, we're pretty, we're crunchy granola, we're forage-based.

Yeah, hell yeah.

You know, chelated minerals, keep it real.

Everything's organic.

Sugar, lots of forage.

All the, you know, granola stuff that we do.

And that's what she was getting.

And, you know, she didn't look great.

And, like, I have a lot of client horses who are on diet, similar to that, and they do so well.

And I mean, why does this horse looks like shit?

I mean, that's where I have mine, and he looks great.

But it's phenomenal.

I think, was she, like, skinny fat or just weak looking?

Weak, that's a good word.

Yeah, weak, that's a good word for it.

And, okay, so MFM diets, they require very high protein, lots and lots of protein, and moderate to high starch and sugars.

So that's the part we hate.

That's the part we hate.

Like 30% MSC.

And the one, and actually Kahlan, you can probably support me so much better on this.

The one thing that they really do need a good bit of are antioxidants.

And I don't really understand the role of antioxidants in this.

I wonder if because the Desmond is clumping together and misfolding, the muscles have a harder time getting rid of trash.

— Why MFM Muscles Struggle to Clear Cellular Waste

Makes sense.

So they need extra assistance.

But also, then all that stress is causing inflammation.

They can't really let go of it.

It's like they need an extra recycling center in their bodies.

That makes sense to me.

Yeah, that checks out.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know nearly enough about MFM because you're the only person I know with a horseshoe has it.

Well, I mean, understanding how antioxidants work and oxidative stress, I mean, what you just explained, that checks out.

So she was, that's what the MFM pellet is.

It's a combination of NAC, which is, I'm going to let you say it.

N-acetylcysteine.

Thank you.

You say it so much better than me.

And so high doses of that, which is horrible because it smells like rotten diesel fuel.

I don't know how else to explain it.

No, it does.

That's, you're on.

Okay.

It's disgusting.

Now that's it.

Yeah.

They also on top of that knee, the vitamin E is going to be a big one.

And it matters, you said it matters a lot, the form that they have it in.

Yeah.

So you only do the liquid.

So this is actually one thing I'm teetering back and forth on.

So for, and this is where I have to watch myself, is the two brands that my vet recommended are Elevate and Nano E.

Nano E gets into their system, like starts to build up and actually like show effects in seven days.

Elevate takes 56 days.

Direct quote from him.

I don't know why I remember that, but it's a core memory now.

I've actually never heard that.

That's what the man said, that's, we can go with it.

Excuse me while I write that down.

So I have her, I started her on Nano E, and that helped her tremendously.

But it's expensive.

She needs to be on 5,000 IU, and I did one more for good luck because why not?

I mean, for good luck, obviously.

Yeah, we need all the good luck we can get.

So she was on 6,000, so I mean, we're burning through a bottle every, what, 20 days?

Woof.

Woof is right.

It's like $74.95 a bottle, right?

They're like $90 now.

What?

Yeah.

Usually, I'm pretty good about finding deals.

I was going to say, because SmartPak usually has a 20 percent.

Yeah.

You can sponsor us.

Hey, shout out, Kentucky Equine Research.

Shout out SmartPak.

You can sponsor us.

Yeah.

We'll give you business.

Products.

I feed all KER.

All my stuff is KER.

Their shit is good quality.

Yeah.

They're phenomenal.

You have to.

Yeah.

I have to have no choice.

You know what I do want to talk about?

So, high NSE, high antioxidants, with the MFM pellet.

Yes.

You said, so when she first got diagnosed, it was mild.

That's right.

Yes.

She came back as very mild.

And the vet recommended, you know, put her on this feed, a lot of alfalfa, vitamin E, and the MFM pellet.

Great.

And I did...

I kind of like made my own grain, because I was like, I got to hold on to some type of granola.

— Diet Overhaul: Going Grain-Free & Making It Work

Obviously.

I mean, let's not get crazy.

Yeah.

So I made a blend, and I did everything, and I was like, do you know what?

She was on the MFM pellet, and I did probably 10 weeks of what was recommended.

And I didn't notice a huge improvement.

But I think in retrospect, and we spoke about this before, I think the reason why I didn't have the wonderful epiphany is because she was still battling the ulcers.

Right.

I think those were a lot louder than we thought.

Well, yeah, and if she's got that much damage and inflammation, she's not absorbing everything you're giving her the way she should.

Oh, damn.

I didn't think about that.

Yeah.

She literally has open wounds in her digestive tract.

Oh, shit.

I didn't think about that.

Damn.

Well, I mean, that makes sense.

Yeah.

So, you ended up...

How long was your treatment that you did when you did the actual pharmacological treatment?

We did gastric guard for four weeks, then we re-scoped, and he said do two more weeks of full tube.

So, she did six weeks of full tube, and then he recommended the titration dose, which was two weeks half tube, two weeks quarter tube.

Okay.

And I did notice a difference after we finished that treatment.

And she, I mean, she was going really well, and at that point, I took her off of the MFM pellet because it's expensive.

Super.

And I was like, you know what, she's doing okay.

The ulcer treatment seemed to be the thing that moved the needle more than the MFM pellet, so got it.

Okay.

Yep.

Perfect.

And I think that's what the case was.

So, which to me was a huge learning of the impact of ulcers.

Yeah.

And really kind of made me eat my words because in the past, I was always like, nah, she's not going to be an ulcery horse.

Well, I've said this before.

It's something that's so, like, it's so common.

Over 50% of horses in captivity have ulcers or something crazy like that.

Yeah.

And they may not be screaming at you about it, but it seems like such a simple thing.

Like, I don't know.

In my head, I overlook it too.

And I look at other gut related issues because I'm like, oh, they probably do, but maybe they don't.

I don't know.

Everybody has ulcers.

We don't take it seriously enough, I think, even though we do know a lot about gastric ulcers, which is so weird.

We're just, I think it's easier to write it off.

Because it's, I don't know, maybe it's too easy of an answer.

I don't know what that is.

And especially among professionals, I see that happen more.

I agree.

In people who are really in this shit, they want to hear zebras, not horses kind of thing.

Yeah.

So I feel like that, like, give yourself some love there because I would probably have done the same thing.

That makes so much sense.

And I mean, that's true.

And I mean, I think to your point, maybe one of the reasons is because of the cost of treatment that we just don't want to go through it.

— Why MFM Is Underdiagnosed: Cost & Complexity

It's a pain in the ass treat and it's expensive.

It is.

Well, and like, especially when you're granola, you don't necessarily want to go that route of the proton pump inhibitors.

You don't, like, you want to avoid that at all costs.

Like, well, of course there's no reason to have ulcers.

Give her a great diet.

She always has forage.

She's got, you know, stomach acid buffering, access all the time.

I ride her well.

She doesn't travel very far in the trailer.

You know, like, on paper, she shouldn't have ulcers.

Yeah.

But she also wasn't showing you, she wasn't screaming to you about her pain.

Yeah.

So she was, like we said earlier, she's probably internalizing it and giving herself ulcers.

Yeah.

So that really moved the needle.

Then I know there's kind of a dip in your story.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, so we did the treatment.

And I do want to add in one piece, and this is so petty, but it's such a pet peeve of mine that I have to use this platform.

And this, I think, goes back to, like, why a lot of people will just kind of, like, brush over ulcers, because it is so expensive.

And this is a direct quote from my veterinarian, compounded emeprazole.

And I know what you're about to say.

And we did not ask permission to use his name, so I'm not going to name him, but if you've met the man, you know who I'm talking about.

He says, just sprinkle it on their back.

It does the same thing.

Damn.

Shots fired.

Damn.

Sorry, compounded emeprazole.

But that's true.

I mean, if you're going to pay for it, if you're going to go through the pain in the ass of treating, just fucking do it right the first time.

Yes.

Just do it right the first time.

Yeah.

Because you're going to be right back to square one in six weeks, and you have the same horse, and you're going to be like, oh, it didn't work, blah, blah, blah, I need a new vet, whatever.

Just do it right the first time.

It's so simple.

I had to say it.

For sure.

It was eating me up inside.

So we did the treatment, and I took her off the MFM pellet, because at that point, like we spoke about, I think the ulcers were almost louder than the MFM maybe.

Yeah.

You were seeing more difference by treating the ulcers than the MFM.

Easy.

Yeah.

So this goes back to the dip in the story that you were saying.

I think for her, again, it's MFM is degenerative.

So when she was diagnosed, the labs came back as very mild.

Again, it's degenerative, which I kind of forgot about.

But sometimes you just lose track of time.

I mean, this is over what?

Sure.

Two years ago.

Yeah.

So she was doing better.

We did good for maybe a year.

We were still getting by on fumes, but it was definitely an improvement.

Definitely an improvement.

We improved her diet.

She now gets the most granola ration balancer I can find.

I still want my granola as much as I can, but it's working for her.

— Finding What Works: Don't Change a Thing

At this point, I'm like, nobody move.

Don't do anything.

Don't touch it.

She's on that.

She gets steamed rolled oats.

She gets Vermont Blend.

She gets her mineral salt.

I switched her to the C90, the mineral salt that they have at Trafford Supply and the MFM Pellet now, and 5500 IU of vitamin E.

Then she gets an alfalfa chaff snack with her electrolyte, which is the KER Restore.

Yeah, great.

Then she also gets the KER E03 oil, one pump of that, and the vitamin E is Elevate.

But before we have, if we're going to do a schooling ride, I'll give her maybe 2,000 to 3,000 IU of Nano E and a little extra.

Oh, smart.

Okay.

That seems to be- That seems to carry her through the work.

Yeah.

Cool.

But I'm thinking I need to take her off the Elevate and just lean on Nano E.

I mean- KER, please sponsor us.

Yeah, for real.

Could you possibly- You said she gets 5,500.

Could you take her down to 3,500 and only add the extra 2,000 or 2,500 on the days that she does hard work?

Do you think that would be worth trying or do you think that's dangerous?

I don't know.

I'm scared.

It's fair.

I'm scared.

And the reason why I'm- And I have thought about that.

The only reason why I'm a little weary of making e-changes is because of that- going back to that dip in the story that you mentioned.

Right.

So she was going good for a year and then the spooks came back.

The big panic spooks.

And do you- you haven't seen her do one, have you?

No.

No?

Okay.

Good.

Keep it that way.

You don't need to see that.

You don't need to know.

But she just, I mean, she explodes.

I mean, like I said before, it just lights her on, but nobody's home.

There's no talking to her.

Just like running around freaking out.

Full on panic attack.

And there was a point where I- I mean, I was worried about her safety, where, you know, she's going to run through the fence.

She's going to jump out.

I mean, she would do this with me on her as well.

Damn.

So this would technically was almost like our third impasse of, I don't have a horse right now.

Yeah.

Because she was having fits in the field.

I couldn't ride her.

She was dangerous.

And she's dangerous to, I mean, there's barn stuff that you have to consider.

And that's, I mean, there was actually a point, and we spoke about this a little bit in the past, where I was like, if we can't figure this out, I may have to consider putting this horse down because she's going to kill herself.

Yeah.

Or it's just not quality of life for her.

Or constantly living in fear.

Yeah.

And then I was like, oh my God, like her cortisol levels are spiking.

Oh, Taylor.

I know.

We need to retest for PBID.

We got to do everything.

And I just, I mean, no quality of life, like you said.

And I was worried about barn staff, like she's going to hurt herself, she's going to hurt a human, and I can't have that on my conscious.

And is that the word?

— Conscience, Advocacy & Being Your Horse's Voice

Conscience?

Conscience.

Thank you.

Jesus.

It's okay.

It's a lot.

I can't have that on my mind.

And I reached out to the vet who originally diagnosed her and had him out for just like, you know, look at her.

And I told him what was going on, and he said, you need to put her on the elevate, or the Nano-E.

And well, there's actually two phases of this.

You had to put her on that.

And because at that point, I tried to wean off and try another vitamin E.

And he was like, no, no, no, no.

You can't do that.

Put her back on this.

And I put her on the Nano-E.

She started to do really well.

The spooks subsided substantially.

But then they came back.

So I hope I got the timeline right with explaining the story.

She was not back on the MFM pellet until maybe... two months ago?

Okay, great.

I was going to say three.

Okay, perfect.

That's right.

No, you're probably right.

Probably three months.

So three, probably four months ago is when the spooks also came back really, really, really bad.

And this is again that impasse where I was like, I don't want to have a horse.

Help.

What do we do?

Big help.

And I reached out to a friend of mine and was like, hey, girl, what...

Do you have any thoughts?

Because I just needed fresh eyes.

Yeah.

She's too in the shit.

And that happens.

Girl, yeah.

I was too in it.

And I reached out to her.

She's really smart and she just...

She's dealt with some weird stuff before.

And she made some recommendations that I wasn't... like, super cool with.

But I was like, I get your line of thinking because she mentioned...

She reminded me that MFM was degenerative.

And I kind of, like, forgot about that.

And she was like, well, what did it say when she was first diagnosed?

Very mild.

And she said, well, Taylor, this is two years later.

Maybe she's moderate.

She's graduated.

Yeah.

It's like, god damn it.

She said, you need to go...

You need to get...

Treat it like it's moderate.

You need to...

Yeah.

So I was like, oh shit.

Okay.

And so I revamped her diet and gave her everything that I mentioned prior.

You know, she's on the most granola, ration balancer, the oats from Mompland, the MFM pellet, and Elevate, and the spook stock right when she started on the MFM pellet.

Five days in, gone.

Take that for you.

Oh my god.

So she's been on it, and it's been keeping her nice and good.

Nice.

Nice and nice.

Yeah.

Nice and nice.

So that was a big learning.

And this goes back to what you said, if you're going to do something, do it right.

Yeah.

Just go balls deep the first time.

I should have, and I did.

You know, you did.

You literally did everything that you could do with the symptoms she was giving you, and with the resources that you had.

I don't think you did anything wrong.

Well, thank you.

Apparently, I did, though, but...

No, no, no.

You were just two seconds behind what she needed.

That's a good point.

— Management Tools: PEMF, Cold Water & Magnawave

Just two seconds behind.

That's a good point.

But she doesn't speak human English, so that's only fair.

Yeah.

I mean, you're not psychic, as much as we'd like to believe it.

You're not actually psychic.

So it's okay.

Yeah.

And now she's doing really well.

I mean, she's going super good, and I figured out, like, we have her diet routine, or her diet, her exercise routine well.

We have her diet is just, it's excellent right now.

Although, I do think I need to put her back on the Nano-E.

I mean, even today, before we started recording, I got a call that she was getting a little spunky in the field.

So I don't know, I think she needs to go back on the Nano-E, but that's okay.

We'll unpack that later.

But a few other things that I've noticed with her is, like, when I hose her off or give her a bath, it's got to be hot water.

Like, water from hell.

Yeah, she needs, like, the most soothing stuff to her muscles all the time.

Does she appreciate a liniment bath with hot water?

I actually have not tried that.

That's a good idea.

Oh my God, do it.

That's a good idea.

You could even do just, like, a shitload of magnesium salts in hot water and a little bit of just any liniment.

I like the Sore No More because it smells really good.

It does, yeah.

It smells so good.

If I leave it in my car, my car smells amazing on a hot day.

Not like horse pee.

She might really appreciate that, especially as it gets hotter because I know you mentioned before, like, she's kind of a princess in the pee.

Like she needs, like, just right or Goldilocks kind of situation.

She needs just right.

Not too hot, not too cold, not too wet, not too dry.

Yeah.

That's a good idea.

I might try that, especially, I like the magnesium salts too.

You're going to have to coach me through that.

Where do I get them?

No, Epsom salt.

Oh, duh.

Yeah.

Okay.

I can do that.

How much would I do?

If I just have a regular bucket, how much do I put in there?

I don't know, a shitload.

Okay.

You can't fuck that up.

Measure it with your heart?

Yeah.

It's like a garlic situation.

You can't fuck it up.

Okay.

Oh, that's such a smart idea.

I've never, I don't.

Honestly, if she's, not when she's in the throes of a spook, because I know she gets really frothy and hot, you don't want her to get overheated.

But after a spook or a particularly sore day, that's when I would do the hot water and magnesium.

You could do like for a one-gallon bucket, you could do like a cup or a cup and a half.

Okay.

And it dissolves really quick.

And then just do a shot of liniment, like some, any liquid liniment would be fine.

I like the gel lotion from Sore No More, cause Loki also hates cold water.

He's just kind of a princess that way.

He likes cold water in the rain and in the river.

He doesn't like to be touched.

If it's my doing, he doesn't like to be touched with cold water.

So I usually will do the lotion so I can avoid having to put cold water on him.

— Topical Lotion, Spray Protocols & Post-Work Recovery

But they have a good spray.

You can do a little shot in there and do that maybe after she works or the following day, like on her off days, to help the muscles relax.

That's smart.

Try it, see what happens.

That's a really good idea.

I will do that.

Epsom salts are cheap as hell.

So it's another thing you can do to keep her comfortable.

That's a great idea, yeah.

So yeah, we'll definitely start integrating that.

That's a good call.

So in addition to that, blanketing is also a big thing.

Really anything, I guess, that's gonna make her muscles stiff.

She has a hard time releasing, and then when her muscles are stiff, it's really painful for her.

Yeah, yeah.

So she, yeah, like cold rain, can't do cold rain.

There was a period there where, and I think I can kind of get away with it a little bit more now.

If it's under 60, she has to be covered.

Like all, I know.

She's like a goat.

I know.

Like all of her sheets have hoods on them.

Yeah, all her clothes are completely like head to toe.

He has a wardrobe.

He has a full ass wardrobe.

And if it's like in the 60s and it's raining, she still needs a rain sheet.

It's like the cold droplets, they kind of, yeah.

You both just sit the same like inch movement with our back.

All the way, yeah.

But it has been a lot to kind of figure out what makes her go.

But as of right now, just the diet, the exercise plan, the beamer has been a really big help for her.

Yeah, Taylor got a beamer, you guys.

I'm so jealous.

I've always wondered what.

She's been generous enough to use it on my horses.

Yeah, the boys, they love it.

Oh, their slut's for it.

Yeah, they love it.

It's been super helpful for them.

But yeah, Leah gets a lot out of it, which is really good.

Do you do that after a workout or on her off days?

They're just kind of whenever.

I kind of try and do it every day.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

I know.

Yeah, which is kind of hard in the summer because it's hot.

Yeah.

You just do like 20 minutes or?

Yeah.

So there's three settings.

There's P1, P2, P3, which is incredible.

Yeah, hilarious.

It's like you guys knew what you were doing.

And so I put P3 on her, which is a 20-minute cycle.

Perfect.

And she wears that while I do her barn chores.

Yeah, just chilling in the house.

That's awesome.

So she does that.

But yeah, she's going really good.

And I'm asking her questions.

I don't know if we'll be able to move up in the levels, meaning I don't know if we'll...

I mean, I would love to get my silver on her, but it's all a matter of just her comfort level and if she's enjoying it.

I mean, right now, the fact that we can just have a lovely ride and I know what she needs to be comfortable, that's all that matters.

What more could you ask for?

Yeah.

That's worth gold any day.

Yeah.

So we have the recipe for success and comfort, and if that leads to something else, amazing.

— Leah Today: A Happy Horse with a Recipe for Success

I would love that.

But if not, we have a happy horse and she's the happy part of the story.

Yeah.

This is the good part.

Yeah.

I love the good part.

Yeah.

It is a lot of management.

I do have to keep an eye out for ulcers because a lot of horses with MFM, they really hoard them, but I think it just goes back to that muscle pain.

So for her, I just have to watch if her eye gets a little muted, maybe, or if- The lip tension.

Yeah, little things.

She gets a little spooky, that means that maybe I need to up some antioxidants or something like that.

In the winter, I just need to be really aware of the temperatures, and everyone thinks I'm psychotic about the management, but I'm like, why don't you manage a horse with all this stuff?

You do it.

She needs a full spa regimen all her life, basically.

Yeah, but once you get it down and you realize it and what the routine is.

Yeah, and you know what?

I'm not a really Pollyanna kind of woman, but I'm going to choose to be in this moment and say, all this means is that you get to spend more time with her.

Oh, I like that very much.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

I've been that way.

I'm going to cry immediately.

I love my son.

With everything that we've been through, it just keeps me more accountable for being there, being there with him and enjoying the little things that we can do.

Every hard thing that we've been through, both of us, has only made us closer to our horses, and forced us to hear them more, which is really cool.

It sucks that they had to go through pain or discomfort for it to get there, but they are our greatest teachers, and I'm so grateful for the time that I have with him.

I used to think a good ride used to have a lot higher standard.

Now, if I can putz around Wachtrot in just a neck rope, and he's comfortable and happy and breathing deeply the whole time, I fucking win.

That's the lottery.

That's my Olympics.

Nothing is better.

So it's like, I don't know, we don't have a choice but to choose to be grateful for it, and be grateful that we have enough brain capacity and the resources to be able to manage what we're dealing with.

Exactly.

And what our horses have been able to help, I mean, Loki's story has helped so many others working through rehab.

Leah's story, I mean, I've had in this last month, I've had two people reach out to me whose horses have just been diagnosed with MFM, and they're like, Taylor, what are you doing?

And it's, I mean, granted it took a couple years of just like, you know, some fuck-ups to get there, but.

But now we're here, and now we're helping.

And that means that my, like, my mishaps can shorten any mishap period that other horses have.

So, you know, it sucks that we had to go through it, but it's not in vain because it's shortening the rehab process.

It's shortening the shitty part of the story for other people so you can get back to the good part faster.

— Closing: Shortening the Shitty Part for Other Owners

Perfect.

Yeah, love that.

Well, thank you for sharing her story.

Oh, yeah, girl, I mean, she would have yelled at me if I didn't.

Yeah, I hate that fully.

My animals yell at me a lot, but.

I kind of hate that she's, we're not at the barn today because I'm super warm and comfortable in this room, but I love seeing her just kind of check on us from her stall because I'm always on the side where I can see her.

And I always just, it looks like she's listening and she's like monitoring. 100 percent.

Don't make me look stupid. 100 percent.

Don't embarrass my mom.

It's really cute.

No, she's a genius.

And I think that just kind of drives home, like listen to your horses.

Because if you sense that something is up and something isn't right, and they're going against their character, that's something of value.

And listen to it.

Every damn time.

Sometimes it takes two muscle biopsies.

True.

Ew.

All right, babe.

Well, I love you so much.

I love you for sharing.

And it's fun.

I can't wait to listen back to this because I just had so much fun.

This was a good one.

Yeah, I think so too.

All right, cheers.

If you or a friend have a topic, story or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

E3: Heel Pain Heartache: Loki's story

Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:37:24 GMT

Kahlan, RMP's very own, share's the story of her gelding's battle with navicular syndrome. Taylor and Kahlan discuss navicular disease versus navicular syndrome, diagnostics, and different approaches to rehab. Resources: Alicia Harlov, The Humble Hoof Jean Luc Cornille, The Science of Motion Jec Ballou, Equine Fitness and Performance Equiband Eagle Pro-6 Hay testing: equi-analytical.com Grazing muzzles: flexible filly, greenguard, whatever they will keep on Boots: scoot boots, cavallos, cloud boots, whatever is comfortable for your horse Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoof Care Practicioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Intro: Navicular Disease vs. Navicular Syndrome

All right, navicular divi Here we go.

All right, navicular disease versus nicu- Why are these so hard?

Oh, my God.

All right, navicular disease versus navicular syndrome.

Let's get into it, Loki story.

Yay, not yay, but we're here.

But yay now.

It's yay now.

All right.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

I went from hearing that like, oh my gosh, this is the end of the world, to her just going, oh yeah, he's got a little bit of heel spur here, or it looks a little bit like this, whatever.

I was like, oh, I'm not going to die.

We're not all suffering, we're going to die terribly.

So how did it all start?

Take us back.

I've kind of like worked backward from that.

So like I was saying a second ago, I think I know the exact day it happened.

So like we said previously, we've just kind of gotten by on, you know, Red Bull and gas station food our whole lives.

And he was always sounding great, and like thought he was indestructible.

I thought I was indestructible.

We did dumb shit and it always worked out.

But then when I moved from our barn we grew up in, we bought a house, moved to the mountains, and went and moved him to this like beautiful property.

The footing in the arena was shite, but it was fine because I didn't really ride in there that much.

Was it like really soft or really hard or rocky?

Rocky.

Oh, okay.

Was it deep too?

No, it was really, it was like packed clay.

Oh, with rocks on top?

Yeah.

Oh, so it was like Lego land.

Literally.

So, Dahlonega is that way, like my property was that way.

I didn't have Europe and the Dahlonega, it was cool.

Yeah, it was 3.4 miles from the square.

Oh, right on.

Yeah.

That's a story for a day when we have a drink in hand.

Fair enough.

But the property was beautiful.

It was just what we needed.

It was, he was on a 40-acre pasture with only four other horses.

Lots of woods and lots of trails through the woods where his pasture was, so he got a lot of movement, which was awesome.

He was really happy.

He was really content there.

The only reason that I think that I know that that was an issue is because there was this dog.

So the barn owner had a guard dog named King Leonidas.

He was a- I-dis?

No, King Leonidas.

Oh, oh my gosh.

He was just really inflamed.

Inflammation of the dog.

As you were.

He was the guard dog for the barn.

He was an English Mastiff.

He was the sweetest.

He was such a good dog.

Like, he guarded all the barn girls.

He would make sure the property was protected.

He was such a good guy.

And Loki hates dogs, like has always hated dogs.

But he loved Leo.

So, every time the barn owner, Julie, would bring the horses in to eat, like, they would just come into their stalls, have breakfast, then go back out.

Leo would, like, help her bring them in.

And Loki and him would play so hard in the driveway, like, Leo would, like, buff, buff at him, and Loki would immediately rear up and start, like, playing with him, and they were chasing each other, and they, Loki actually enjoyed playing with him.

They were pals.

They were pals, because I guess he seemed like a small horse, not a dog, because he was fucking giant.

Yeah.

Um, and he had such a good time.

I remember I came up to the barn one day, and Julie said, hey, two days ago, Leo and Loki were playing in the pasture, and he reared up and came down on a rock.

Oh, like his, like, he land wobbly.

Yeah.

And he walked off lame.

And I was like, oh, why didn't you tell me that two days ago?

Why was he, like, why have I not is, what, huh?

And she was like, oh, it was literally five minutes, and then he walked off sound again.

He just, I just wanted you to know in case, like, it abscesses, and, you know, because he has a bruise and it grows out, whatever.

And I was like, okay, okay.

Huh, sure.

What year was this?

Mm, 2021.

Okay.

Spring of 2021.

All right, so four years.

Yeah.

Okay.

And truly, he was normal for a while.

Like, I think maybe there was just, I don't know.

— Loki's Early History & First Signs Something Was Off

He was fine after that.

We'll say fine.

Looking back, I don't know, with the eyes I have now, if I would say he was fine.

But from what I knew at the time, he was writeable and sound and comfortable, and his eye was nice and soft.

He was behaving like he always did, so I didn't think anything of it.

I was like, okay, truly, it was just like he stubbed his toe, kind of energy, and then was fine.

And then in 2022, April, he started on the circle, like on like a 20-meter circle.

He was turning in like a bicycle at a trot, and I was like, that's so weird.

Like, you're pretty fit.

I don't know.

Like he wasn't bending, is that what you mean?

Yeah, he couldn't bend, and he was just super blocked in the whole front left quadrant.

Like the whole front left square of the horse was very blocked and stiff.

And I was like, okay, that's weird.

Like, maybe, you know, I've been riding you too hard in one direction, or you've played in the pasture too hard or whatever.

So I had, you know, my body worker come out.

I was constantly rubbing him.

Like, I did red light.

We did, you know, everything that I knew to do.

I did.

And it just kind of wasn't getting better, but it was only to the left.

I was like, okay, it feels almost like he's gonna fall over to the left.

On a straight line, he's fine.

And then to the right, he's fine.

And he even feels nice and loose to the right, but like to the left, he was just blocked.

I was like, okay, something's going on here.

And then I stopped riding him for a couple of weeks.

Bodywork, Cairo, blah, blah, blah, all the normal stuff that I would do.

And then started working him back in and just walk and trot on a straight.

I was like, what the hell?

He got like short strided in the front.

Not the floor's lava quite yet, but just kind of like, oh, that's not as nice as normal.

Like mismatched between fronts and hinds kind of thing?

Yeah.

More like a shuffle?

Kinda, yeah.

Okay.

And it almost felt like the weakness was over his back.

Oh.

And I was like, hmm, that's weird.

So I had everybody around me like look at him and whatever.

And they were like, no, he looks like he's such a lovely horse.

What do you, he's fine.

But because he's so long strided, if you didn't know him really well, you couldn't see it.

Because even him being short strided was still within normal limits for other horses.

But given his baseline of having a longer stride, it's like a whole standard deviation difference.

It was.

And I felt like I was losing my mind.

Because everyone was like, he looks beautiful.

Like, what are you talking about?

And I was like, okay, all right.

Maybe I'm just being nervous, whatever.

And I had just brought Ren home.

And so I was like, constantly spinning.

My wheels were constantly spinning, trying to get my new old horse to, like, his, like, optimized from where he was.

And he was really not okay.

And so I was just like, really in the sauce, right?

And I was like, maybe I'm just like making this up.

I don't know.

And then when I got one vet out for their Coggins in May, so a couple weeks after I got back on him and he was shuffly, I was like, hey, while you're here, can you do a lameness exam?

And she was like, yeah, no worries.

What's up?

What are you seeing?

And I explained the past month, didn't think about the thing with the dog almost a year ago at that point.

Okay.

Because it truly like he seemed like he walked off fine.

And then he wasn't, but it was long after, so I don't know.

But I had her do a lameness exam and she kind of didn't do a lameness exam.

She didn't block him.

She ran a sensory tool.

You know how they do for acupuncture?

It's like, or for neuropathy testing in people, it's like a hard piece of plastic.

And it's teeny tiny, almost like it looks like a cat's whisker, but it's hard plastic.

And you like tickle parts of like someone's foot to test for neuropathy or reflexes.

— Understanding Neuropathy & How Horses Mask Pain

Oh, oh, oh, yes.

Yeah.

So they use that in acupuncture as a tool to like signal where the impingement is.

I don't think I've ever seen that, at least in the horse world.

It doesn't look like much.

So she ran this tool down his neck, his left neck, the blocked side.

And she was like, yeah, his leg hurts.

Not nerve blocked side.

We need to do a...

Correct, correct.

His like stiff side.

Yeah.

So she ran down his neck and she was like, his leg hurts.

Gave him six months off.

And I was like, what?

What do you mean?

Okay.

Like is it DDFT?

Is it like, is it superficial?

I don't know.

What do you mean his leg hurts?

Like what part?

Because I'm old ass limb.

Yeah.

I know how to heal a leg injury.

Like I've had some really gnarly tears and breaks and like every soft tissue in the leg, I've had a horse come to me that I heard it.

Like, and I knew that that's not what I was looking at.

It's like, there's no like crispy pieces.

Like if I run my hand down, there's no like crispy tendons.

He doesn't react anywhere.

I don't feel like that's the case.

Meaning like scar tissue when you say crispy?

Yeah.

I like crispy better than scar tissue.

Yeah, it's less scary.

But that's what it feels like.

Yeah, it is.

It feels like little tiny pebbles under the skin almost, like gravel under the skin.

So I was like, that's weird.

And he flexed fine.

And then she was like, all right, well, that's 250 bucks.

Maybe get a red light.

And I was like, I have that already.

Huh.

All right.

When you say six months off, is that like stall rest?

Do I need to wrap it?

What am I, like, what are we doing here?

And she was like, no, I don't think he'd do well in a stall.

I was like, well, you're right.

Facts.

These are true facts about my son.

Yes.

But, so just pasture rest him.

And I was like, okay, does he need any kind of support?

And I think at that point, you had given me a set of sleeves, because they were- Oh, the compression socks.

Yeah, because I was like, okay, maybe that would be great.

Just, you know, maybe he needs a little bit of support.

Because I know, like, with my knee, sometimes I need extra support to take the pressure off, whatever.

I didn't do much, because that wasn't the problem.

He hated them.

He wanted to kill them.

They were uncomfortable and itchy, and it was the summer, and he hated it.

Oh, God, yeah.

So that was not it.

But I did what she said.

I did six months off, and then started doing, like, some Jec Ballou rehab exercises that I already had known just from, like, starting horses.

And he was worse.

He was lame.

He was getting to be where, like, he's noticeably lame.

And he was doing the floor is lava.

Okay.

Everybody around me was like, yeah, he just looks like, you know, maybe he has thin soles.

And I was like, I promise you, he doesn't.

So when we say floor is lava, just going so fast, toe first, and just trying to get your feet off the ground as quick as possible.

His weight bearing is uncomfortable.

So that's our...

That's, yeah, the floor is lava.

It looks like they're walking on the floor, like, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot.

And they just want to get their feet off at as quick as possible.

Yeah.

And he's a really hot horse.

Like, he's quick.

He likes to party.

So everyone around me was like, no, he's just being fast.

And I was like, no, he's not being fast.

Like, I am looking at his eye and I'm like, something is fucking wrong.

Like, something's wrong.

And also, why is he only being fast when he's on bad footing?

Why is he, you know, on like hard-packed ground that's smooth?

Because he doesn't like to slide.

Like, if the footing is too deep, it's a big problem.

So sometimes, like, if it's grass that's dry, if he's in a flat part of the pasture that's dry, he does great.

Ding, ding, ding.

Yeah.

We'll circle back to that.

Yeah.

And so everyone was like, you know, you're just being paranoid, whatever.

— Dismissed as Behavioral: The Struggle to Be Heard

It's behavioral.

It's whatever.

And I was like, okay, well, like, I appreciate your input, but, you know, get fucked at this point, because that's not right.

Yeah.

So I tried doing all this stuff and whatever.

Nothing was working.

Everyone was telling me I was crazy.

So then we're in after six months off.

So we are now in January.

No.

Yeah.

We're about January of 23.

Okay.

I had tried so much.

I had, like, I dove into research, whatever.

I thought, okay, there's got to be scar tissue somewhere.

So I did peptides.

I did all the different PEMFs that were available.

I spoke to my vet, and she was like, no, maybe give him more time off.

Give him confinement time off.

Like, make the pasture smaller.

So the barn owner, who was, like, super accommodating, she was, she's a good friend.

And she made us, like, a little, for my two horses, made us, like, a tiny little strip of pasture.

And she was like, keep him here, so that he moves around less.

And that went over, like, a turd and a punchbowl.

It did not help.

It was bad.

Everyone was having a bad time.

My horses were miserable.

I was miserable, and he was getting worse.

And I was like, why is he getting worse?

I don't understand.

It's like, he just needs to move.

He just needs to move.

He needs to move.

And, like, my instincts were telling me that.

But I didn't know there was anything behind that.

So then that, at the end of that year, in December, December 13th, I had their teeth done.

I had another full lameness exam with a nerve block this time.

And he blocked the back of his foot.

Okay.

You did a palmar nerve?

Okay.

And I...

This is where it gets pretty ass.

It was frustrating up until this point.

It started to suck here.

I paid all this money for this vet visit.

He blocked to his foot.

I watched him go off, still stiff in his neck, because his, like, compensation pattern left him really stiff in his neck.

And I was like, oh, it's his foot.

It's his hoof.

Okay.

Well, all right, X-rays are next.

Let's do X-rays.

So we walked back into the barn, and I was like...

My gut was telling me that this was going to be bad news.

I just knew, like, something's really bad.

So she blocked the back of the foot.

What did she do before that?

What did...

Like, what was the...

That was the first step.

Oh, okay.

You just explained the symptoms, what was going on.

She said, let's block the back of the foot.

Yeah, I said, here's the history of what's going on.

Let's block the back of the foot.

So he did a Palmer Digital Nerve Block, and he went off still a little out.

But it was more so body compensation patterns.

Got it.

Okay.

Body tightness and unsoundness, not actual...

I mean, she rated him a three out of five lameness at that visit, and that was probably the worst day he ever had, which is good, because I wanted the vet to see that.

But the arena where we were, I was like, can we go on the street?

And she was like, no, this is fine.

It wasn't fine.

He was walking on Legos with an already painful body and expecting pain.

So there was a lot that I would have done differently.

But it was when we got inside that it really started to get shitty.

So we get inside, do his x-rays, whatever.

She says, these look great.

He has good depth.

These x-rays are fine.

There's literally nothing wrong with his bones.

And I was like, okay.

And then my heart sank.

And I was like, well, then now what?

And she was like, well, here's the hard part.

You can't heal a foot from the inside.

And I was like, what does that mean?

That's what I said.

Okay.

And I was like, okay.

What?

And she was like, if there's soft tissue injury to the hoof, there's no way that you can fix it.

And I was like, but why does he have a soft tissue injury that didn't heal?

If there is one, why did it not heal?

And then that's kind of when I thought back to the day with Leo, where he, because that's the only thing I could think of.

— The Gravel Test & Realizing It's the Feet

If you're running barefoot through the gravel driveway and you hit a rock right in the middle of your foot, it's going to hurt.

And you could sprain something or tear something or put extra strain on a tendon.

And then it has to heal.

That was almost two years ago at this point.

Why is he lame?

What's going on?

And she said, well, you know, you could do the MRI and see how bad the soft tissue is.

But we basically know it's going to be soft tissue because it's not his bones.

And if you do that, all that's giving you is information.

And I was like, what do you mean by that?

She said, that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, well, I think her rationale was like, there's nothing, I mean, this is what she said.

It wasn't her rationale.

This is what she said verbatim.

There's nothing you can do about this.

So if you get the MRI, it's just spending money to have more information so you know how bad the bad prognosis is.

Oh.

And I was like, what do you mean?

Like, what does that mean?

Yeah.

And she was like, well, you can't heal the inside of the hoof.

Like, if there's tissue damage in there, this will never heal.

He will be lame forever.

And I was like, I thought I was going to throw up.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, so should I rest it more?

What about his environment?

What can I do?

There's no, I don't.

What do we do?

And she said, there's nothing you can do.

She said, he'll be a pastor about forever.

There may be times in his life where he is sound, where there's times where he's sound enough to walk him.

Like you can ride him at a walk, but he'll never trot off sound again.

You can try to keep him in a really contained space or keep him, like he can live in a stall and that may promote healing to it.

But this is like this is his new normal.

He's a really cool horse.

So I don't think you should put him down, but you could donate him and he can just have a good life like as a donated horse to the hospital.

And I was like, like the whole world started spinning.

I didn't know what to say.

And so I just said, okay, thanks.

And I gave him my credit card and I just sobbed into his mane for hours.

And like, I don't take the word no well.

And so I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed.

And then I put him back in his grassy pasture, foreshadowing.

And went home and just like fell into my husband and really didn't move for like two days.

And then I got really pissed off.

There it is.

I got really pissed off.

Because I knew that that's not right.

I was like, you know, everyone hugged me and everyone was like, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry about this terrible prognosis.

And for like two days, I just felt really bad for myself.

And then I was like, wait, fuck that.

That can't be right.

That's not like that's not who he is.

And I asked him, I was like, are you broken?

Do you, are you in so much pain that like, you're giving up?

And he was like, I don't know what your problem is.

Let's go play.

I was like, okay, so I don't know what, I don't know where to go, but I'm going to ask everyone that I've ever known what's going on.

And literally, like two weeks, maybe within a month, someone moved to the farm to keep her horse there temporarily.

Shout out King, my little buddy.

And she was, is a farrier.

And so she saw me like crying on my tack box.

And you just asked me, she knew I was having a vet visit.

And because I asked if anyone needed to like add on to it, if anyone needs anything, whatever, why not?

She'll be here for hours.

And she asked me how it went.

Clearly, it wasn't going well because I was not OK.

And she was like, oh, yeah, navicular is really hard.

King was like that because I didn't know how to treat an infection for years and no one told me any better.

And that's why I have this career.

And I was like, what?

Say all that again slower.

Say that like eight more times.

What are you fucking talking about?

— The Word 'Navicular' Is Finally Spoken

And so she dove into her story.

And at this point still, the vet never said the word navicular.

She said, yeah, soft issue injury and his hoof.

And I was like, okay, that sucks.

Sob forever and then, you know, jump off a bridge.

I never heard that word.

I mean, I'd heard that word.

But in my, like the only context I had for it was give them Prevacox until the pain kills them.

Yeah.

That's the only reference I had.

I knew one navicular horse.

And well, okay, looking back, I probably knew a lot.

I knew one horse diagnosed navicular.

I don't know what her, that actually called it syndrome or disease, because there is a difference.

But she was in a shoeing package, like she was in steel shoes forever.

She had that like weird rocking horse kind of movement and got pain medicine every day.

And then she died.

Like that's what I knew about navicular.

And I was like, no, he's not a navicular, Sarah.

That's not what, and she was like, yes, it is, idiot.

Like the back of his foot is hurting.

And I was like, okay, help me.

Like, what does that mean?

And that's where it got good.

It started to get good.

It was, it's been really hard.

But like, that's where I was like, okay, this girl knows what she's talking about.

I need help.

So I kind of had her break it down, like what this means.

I don't know if you want to jump in, Taylor, and help me explain with your brain.

So okay, we have navicular disease and navicular syndrome.

And I feel like whenever people say the word or hear the word navicular, it's followed by a cringe.

And they have four navicular bones.

And whenever anyone says they have navicular, I'm like, well, that's great.

They got four of them.

Which one?

Well, tell me about them.

Yeah.

What are they doing?

But okay, so navicular disease is when there's actual bony changes to the navicular bone on radiographs.

And then navicular syndrome is when there's just back of the foot pain.

And that's when it kind of creeps into the world of soft tissue.

So it's just heel pain.

That's really all like if a horse radiographs clean on the navicular bone, but they're still back of the foot pain, that's when we call it navicular syndrome or just heel pain.

And I think heel pain is a lot more palatable.

Right.

It's just like, because the navicular term, it's kind of, it's a scary word.

I literally was like, don't be stupid.

He's not navicular.

Yeah, he is because his hood is hurting.

It's like, that's all it is.

And it was like she slapped me in the face with a tortilla.

Geez.

Oh my God.

Yeah, so, I mean, that's, there are two completely different things, but since they kind of affect the same region in the foot, you know, we just- They get lumped.

They kind of get lumped together, although it's not appropriate to do that.

But anyway, so when you're looking at the navicular apparatus, there's a couple of different pieces that run into it.

We have some soft tissues in there, which is the big heavy hitter is going to be your deep digital flexor tendon, which runs behind the navicular bone and connects to the coffin bone or P3.

The collateral ligaments, which connect the navicular bone to the second phalanx or P2, which is the short pastern, which is just like the bone above the coffin bone.

And then we have the impar ligament, which connects the navicular bone to the coffin bone.

So that's like the big beast of it, but we got some little tiny baby little ligaments in there that do some really heavy stuff.

And if those get inflamed or irritated or there's some type of damage to it, it can create foot pain.

Yeah.

And oftentimes that kind of falls into the whole heel pain package.

Yeah.

The whole kit and caboodle.

Yeah.

So...

Symptom-wise.

Yes.

Symptom-wise.

So since this diagnosis and then looking back, I could tell you a lot more symptoms that were there, and I didn't know what I was looking at.

Well, they're insidious.

— Soft Tissue Injuries: Insidious & Easy to Miss

Yeah.

When they first start, like, especially soft-tissue things, and I had a trainer say this to me a while back, and this haunts me.

He said, if it's the little things, like that little minor misstep that you see on occasion, he said, that's the stuff that scares me.

The big stuff where they're crippled overnight, he's like, that doesn't scare me.

It's the little things.

And I was like, it didn't catch up with me until later that, oh my God.

Okay.

Like, I think it, anytime I hear someone say like, oh, my horse is so trippy on the trail, he doesn't pay attention, he doesn't watch, he's so clumsy, he doesn't look where his feet are.

Tripping.

I'm like, oh, hey, call the vet now.

Call your farrier.

Dude, don't assume that.

Like, oh, my horse doesn't like to go in the middle of, he wants to rub me off on the trees.

That one pisses me off a lot.

That's so good to say.

Because, okay, listen, like for real, everyone listen up.

If you're half-ass listening to me, now is the time to tune in.

If you're driving, pull over.

Yeah, pull over.

Mic drop time.

So I hear so many people that are like, yeah, I don't really like to trail ride my horse, or he's not a good trail horse.

He goes to the side of the trail and tries to rub me off on the trees.

Or like walking out to the pasture, they have to like hug the grass line?

Yes.

That is not a red flag.

That's like a red, like the whole side of the barn is red.

Like that is...

That's the pirate flag.

Yeah.

That's, oh, that's war.

We're at war now.

That's like, eat your weedies, it's time to go.

Cause, oh my God.

Like if I ever saw him do that, he never really did that.

And that's what, so what's weird about him is his personality.

He's so boisterous and he's so like, I'm invincible.

He won't do less to accommodate his pain.

He'll just do everything faster.

I think that's so important to recognize how your horse communicates things.

Yes.

Like if they have a personality change when they're not feeling well, if they do things faster or slower or like.

If your horse is like not a particularly forward boisterous out there kind of guy, but then they go from that to like refusing on the trail or hugging the grass line.

And then they want, you're thinking, oh, they just want to eat grass.

That's probably not true.

A horse isn't going to like particularly perch their little feet in a spot to eat grass.

They're going to drag you over.

They don't care what's in the way.

But if they're like tippy-toeing over to the grass because they can't get to the pasture through the gravel driveway, that's a huge symptom.

That's like, you've probably been having problems.

And that's just something that's easy to notice.

If your horse is tripping all of a sudden where they've been sure-footed, or you buy a horse and it's a trippy horse, do not discount heel pain.

Because like with Loki, he's so loud.

He just accommodates by running.

Like, he's running wrong.

And I think, I didn't, until like six months even into understanding navicular, did I even understand how important heel-first landing was.

Significant.

And we'll, we'll impact that a little bit more as we go.

It, like, I guess I never, like, I didn't, I didn't know what I was looking at.

Well, a lot of people don't.

I didn't for the longest time.

Yeah.

Like, they put their foot on the ground when they walk.

Super cool.

Yeah, wow.

They have to do it a certain way?

That's exhausting.

These things are exhausting.

I got to watch all four feet do something?

Oh my God.

Well, and so with him, the outside and Taylor, having been his farrier, can attest, the outside of his feet look great.

Like, absolutely gorgeous.

He looks like he should be crunching over rocks, not caring about anything.

Do you know what's so devastating?

So I have, I think, like currently, in the moment, I have three navicular horses on my books.

They all have the most beautiful feet.

— What Healthy Hooves Should Look Like

Oh man.

All of them.

Oh man.

But they don't work.

It's the inside parts.

Yet.

Yeah, there is hope.

Stay tuned, stay tuned.

They're all on the journey.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm still alive.

Yeah, so for the symptoms, again, like the short stridedness, like the floor is lava.

That's a big one.

Yeah.

Even though the floor is lava can also be a symptom of other stuff.

But floor is lava, toe first landing, and you can assess that with slo-mo video.

So check that out.

It's hard to tell.

Yeah.

It's now like after watching it a thousand times, I can tell when he's flat versus heel first.

Yeah.

But I couldn't for the longest time.

You can get an eye, like for especially if it's your own horse and it's like it's just one gate on one horse you need to.

Yeah.

You can usually kind of see, especially if it's toe first, it's a little bit easier.

Yeah.

If it's in toe jabby, that's a good thing to bring up.

If your horse takes a couple steps on the rocks where they're not completely confidently having their heel first, it's not always a big problem.

They may be avoiding one individual rock or something.

I don't get mad at that.

No.

But if your horse is like nubbing along and they're stubbing their toes with every step, that is emergent.

Toe jab.

We hate toe jabs.

Yeah.

We hate a jab.

Yeah.

And then also too, well, tripping, we talk about tripping.

That's a big deal.

Changes in the foot shape as well.

Yeah.

Say more.

I didn't see that with him very much, but now I know how important that is.

Well, because in your defense, he didn't really have any capsular changes.

His capsule stayed gorgeous.

Yeah.

So, if a horse is, and this kind of goes into the biomechanics of it, and I'll keep it kind of concise.

Horses are supposed to land toe first.

Never.

Scratch that.

Edit that out.

So, horses are supposed to land heel first.

When they land heel first, all the pulley systems, the tendons and the ligaments, the hemodynamic system, everything is happy.

That's how it's supposed to go.

When they start to toe jab or land toe first, the back of the foot can begin to atrophy, and you'll start to notice that it will kind of start to close in a little bit.

Like the heel bubs contract.

There it is, yep.

They get a little scrawny.

Yep.

And then you'll notice that the frog, we'll talk about the significance of the frog health, the frog will also kind of start to wither away.

The frog should be pretty beefy, not too beefy.

It shouldn't be like the- Buffy.

It shouldn't be like, holy shit, that's a big ass frog.

That's another issue.

But it should be a healthy frog.

If they're landing toe first, because the frog isn't doing its role properly, it's going to start to atrophy.

And then that's when disease or infection can get in there.

And that circles back to what you were saying about- King.

Yeah.

So I knew, like, my whole life, obviously, I know what thrush is.

I know how to treat it.

I know what an infected central sulcus looks like, you know, like stinky butt crack in the hoof.

Go ahead.

Oh, well, just for central sulcus, just an anatomy piece.

So if you're looking at the frog, the central sulcus, just like what Kahlan said, should be a healthy thumbprint at the back of the foot.

But if it's diseased, you'll notice that that thumbprint will really kind of start to cave in.

It literally collapses into a crack.

And like all the bacteria and fungus and nasty viruses and everything bad in the world can get in there and stay in there.

And split.

And that's where you get that like butt crack at the heel.

And it's super tender.

Have you ever tried to, like, if you can put your hoof pick in it, you have an emergency.

It hurts so much.

It's so hurty.

And I think people just think it's normal.

Like, people don't know what a healthy back of the hoof looks like.

It should not be split.

It should be completely filled in with flesh and hair.

— Thrush, Heel Contraction & Reading the Hoof

If there is a butt crack on the back of the foot, if I can see your horses thrush with their foot on the ground, oh, does bed.

That's really bad.

You're in trouble.

You're in trouble with your failure.

And a lot of times horses will, since it's so painful, they will actually nerve block sound because that infection is so advanced.

They'll nerve block sound and they actually might even receive a diagnosis of navicular syndrome.

When really you just add poor hygiene or not great immune system.

Yeah.

So that's something that we really have to keep an eye out for.

And people always wonder why I'm so psychotic about thrush.

And I'm like, hell.

It's not just gross and stinky.

Like it actually causes them discomfort and can cause them disease.

It's a big ass deal.

I know a horse that got such bad thrush and it wasn't treated correctly and it certainly wasn't treated in a timely manner.

And it went into his coffin bone and he had to have bone resected.

Eww.

Infection can go.

Yeah.

Like it's an infection.

You wouldn't want to leave infection anywhere else.

If their eye was infected, you wouldn't leave it.

If you had an infected wound on their neck, you wouldn't leave it.

So why leave it in the hoof when that's the...

They're running on their toenails all day.

Like those...

That part of them carries such literal weight and is such a vital role in their soundness.

You got to take care of it.

Yeah.

Definitely get after your thrush.

And ask your...

If you're unsure if your horse has thrush, ask your farrier.

Yep.

Ask them.

And I mean, we have...

We'll put some pictures up as well and some recommendations.

We got some great articles about thrush with pictures and things like that so we can share that.

But that's a big deal.

So going back to like some other causes, some people say genetics are a piece.

I don't...

What do you think?

What are your thoughts on that?

So, you know, I never considered that being part of it until...

I mean, okay, I could see how genetics could play a part because like if you have a big chunky quarter horse with teeny tiny feet, they may be more prone to having discomfort.

Like if they're overweight, which so many horses are overweight, that okay, that could be like if breeding is causing teeny tiny little feet.

I could see that as being a cause or like previous position.

Confirmation too.

Yeah.

Well, okay, that's where I was going.

So his Cairo a couple weeks ago, she had said something to me that I always kind of was suspicious of, but I never really considered it.

She said, so I was talking about how he's so close coupled in the back.

Yeah.

He almost seems hypermobile, right?

Why have I never seen that?

I know.

Oh my God.

I know.

Well, and he's half walking horse.

Why have I never thought about that?

Why would you?

Because you just think he's loose and flexible.

But I think he's hypermobile.

I think because all the horses I see that are hypermobile are like in Capitals hypermobile.

Yeah.

He just he uses everything to his advantage.

He's got whispers of it kind of.

Yeah.

He uses everything as if it's his secret superpower.

And I don't notice it that much in the front.

It's in the back.

It's in his hips.

In his hips and his stifles.

Bro.

And I think that's why the past couple years, his stifles have kind of taken the brunt of this diagnosis.

Yep.

He doesn't wring his hocks like a walking horse does when they're engaged.

Not at all.

No, he doesn't.

But I can tell there's a lot more action, like soft tissue and bone, like maybe, like ligament to bone and also like soft tissue versus muscle.

Like he's using more, he's not isolating those muscles to hold them up.

He's just kind, he's relying on their flexibility.

Yeah.

Which sounds crazy, like it's hard to picture.

But as soon as she said that, I was like, oh my God.

It's, I mean, we've been staring at this thing.

— Deep Dive: Analyzing Loki's Radiographs

Literally.

Like this whole situation.

He's wicked flexible.

And he is kind of like turns his feet out in the back just a little bit.

And I think that's because he's super mobile in his like stifle and hawk.

Yeah.

And so they take the pressure.

Yeah.

And then he just kind of like splays his feet out just a little bit.

Yeah.

And I've noticed that get better as I've owned him, but I didn't think anything.

Like I just thought like, oh, he's just stronger.

Yeah.

Like his muscles are better.

So he, I don't know.

There's so much to it.

That's bananas.

So yeah.

Confirmation is a piece.

Yeah.

For sure.

Workload.

Don't overdo it, kids.

Workload.

We'll just leave it at that.

Don't overdo it.

But also workload.

Correctly.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you.

That's where I was going.

She needed a half hole.

I felt it coming.

Thank you.

I was like, how do I say this?

So it's not how fast are you going.

It's not how many jumps you're going over necessarily.

It's at walk and trot on a straight.

Are you doing it right?

Because that can be just as damaging as all the big, scary, fancy stuff.

Oh, for sure.

Like that's what I was doing.

I mean, I was just trail riding him.

Sure, we were, I mean, we were, we were moving.

We were cooking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, he'll climb anything, and he doesn't say no to anything.

But in the arena, if he's not, like, I always ride him in the arena before I go out on trail to see if, like, hey, this is...

Just check in.

Yeah.

Just a quick check in.

Like, are you comfortable?

Are you comfortable enough to use your body really well today?

And if he's not, then I don't do it.

And we go back to the ground, because that makes such a difference.

If I literally do one nonsense, like, for a day, the next time I ride him, he's not quite as good.

Like, I don't know.

It's really subtle.

Yeah.

Well, those are the nuances you got to kind of check in on, because that's, I mean, going back to even what my trainer said years, years ago, that it's the little things that you got to look out for.

Those are the little nuances to keep an eye on, because those are the ones that can kind of blow up.

Okay.

So back to different causes.

Yeah.

All right.

Another possible contributing factor is going to be just your hoof care.

So long toes and low heels are like a huge factor.

So each additional centimeter of unnecessary toe length causes 110 pounds of unnecessary leverage on the deep digital.

Now, if there's damage to the navicular, and this is a brash generalization, but this comes from Dr.

James Rooney and Pete Raimi.

If there is ever any damage to the navicular bone, there's already damage to the deep digital.

I mean, that makes sense.

It makes sense, yeah.

But that comes back to the idea of soft tissue rehab.

So with navicular syndrome and navicular disease cases, there's oftentimes, well, there's always going to be soft tissue involvement in navicular disease.

And again, I'm just quoting the greats here.

I can't take any credit for this.

I'm not a vet, none of that.

But if there's navicular bone change, that means that any navicular rehab should really be focused on soft tissue rehab.

Yep.

Because you can't change the bone.

No, bone's bone.

You're working with these bones, so what can you do to keep the tissues around them comfortable?

Exactly.

Which is, I guess, our next topic.

Or do you want to talk about how it's diagnosed?

Yeah, that's probably a good thing to jump into.

Yeah, because there's a couple of things I do want to say for sure.

Okay.

So if you're starting to notice some concerns with how your horse is going, definitely get the vet out.

That's always the best practice.

Your vet will probably do a lameness evaluation, and that's typically followed by a series of radiographs.

And there's a navicular series that can be done of radiographs, so there's a bunch of certain angles that they'll take, just like a couple different images that they can look at to get a better view of the navicular bone, because if there are bony changes, we want to see the extent, the type, blah, blah, blah.

— The Navicular Radiograph Series Explained

Because the changes that can happen, they can get bone cysts in there, they can get what are called malformed lollipops or synovial invaginations.

So if you're looking at the navicular bone, there's little baby channels in there where the synovial fluid goes in, and those can become malshaped or malfigured if there's any damage to the bone itself, change in bone density, shape, or size, or any type of surface irregularities.

Because remember, the deep digital has to gently roll over the navicular bone.

So if there's outcheas on the bone, it can essentially scrape the deep digital.

Yeah.

It's like you're running it over a cheese grater all the time.

That's a great way to think about it.

Yeah.

On another date that Taylor and I had, we looked at some bones and it was very clear.

I have that in my foot.

That's what we're talking about on that day.

There's always going to be that risk of friction there.

So you have to prioritize correct movement, or you're going to be putting excess strain, like you said just a second ago, with the unnecessary toe length.

There are so many things that you can do to put excess strain on the already compromised tissue.

There's really very little margin for error with this, which is hard, and it makes you kind of obsessed.

Yeah, but there's a happy ending.

We got a happy ending.

Yeah, we got a happy ending.

Hang in with us.

We got it.

All right, so we do radiographs, see if there's any bony changes.

There may or may not be.

Then sometimes the vet may follow up with a Palmar digital nerve block, which blocks the back of the foot.

Although, there have been some studies lately that have been showing that the nerve block may actually migrate to other parts of the foot.

I saw that.

And then of course I was spiraling.

So that kind of like muddies the water.

I would love to speak with a veterinarian about that a little bit more, but in my mind, that would translate to, well, that might kind of make the diagnosis a little bit more nebulous.

And then, but I don't know, that's...

But honestly, it doesn't matter because of the healing process for whatever it could be is going to be the same.

Exactly.

And then we can just do an MRI, which I say that so casually.

Yeah, if you have $3,000 at a trailer, you can do an MRI for sure.

I didn't.

Yeah, MRIs are really quite helpful because then you can see bone soft tissue.

You can see the whole kit and caboodle.

Yeah.

But they're expensive.

So.

Super expensive.

And you have to trailer out to a hospital.

It may not be.

There's a lot of reasons it may not be doable.

More information is always best.

Knowledge is power.

But I think definitely prioritize radiographs.

Is that something that you could agree with?

Oh, totally.

I love imaging.

Anytime I get radiographs sent to me, I'm like, it's Christmas morning.

It's the best.

I'll treat.

It's the best.

All right.

So, yeah.

So, that's how your vet is going to diagnose.

And then, you know, just communicate all the findings with your farrier.

And hopefully, your vet and farrier have a good relationship where they can work together and come up with a plan.

And the owner's on board, yada, yada, yada.

And that gets us into, what do we do with this information?

This is the fun part.

So, if you've listened up to this point, you're probably not feeling great about this.

And I hope that if you have a horse that's got this diagnosis, you hang in there, because this is the good part.

This is where it gets really good.

We should, should we say right now that he is beautifully sound?

Yeah.

He is beautifully sound.

And he is, I actually got to ride him.

Yeah, he carried me up to the barn because I was too lazy to walk up from the basher.

— Loki Today: Sound & Thriving

And Kahlan was like, just have, this is my Uber service.

And he is, he is sound as they come.

So when I say this, I'm only saying this because this is our first point on treatment options.

You may be in this boat.

I was not.

I had a very good history with my farriers.

My last three have been progressive hoof care practitioners, alternative farriers, hippie, beautiful women, whatever you want to call them.

And to say this, because I know some ears perked up, why does she have three?

The only reason she has changed is because of geography.

Oh, yeah.

And it was like all these practitioners, we were all really good friends, and we were like, hey, man, Kahlan's moving to this barn.

I know you go to this area.

You cool to cover?

Oh, yeah.

I didn't even think that it would sound that way.

Because I love you guys so much, I was like, I have these gal pals that have saved my butt, and I thought it feels like such a good thing.

Just to cover, just to ease anyone who had some weird thoughts.

Absolutely right.

Got to look out for my girls.

Previously, he had seen a traditional blacksmith style farrier.

He'd never had shoes, and up until that point, he was sound.

I've had this horse his entire life.

I can promise you with everything that I know, his feet have always looked good.

Yeah.

Always.

That's not something, like, it was actually hard in a lot of points in my life to convince a farrier to take him seriously in any capacity because they look so good from the outside.

Yeah.

And he's so flamboyant that, like, you'd never know something was ever wrong with him.

But he had a lot of inflammation in his body.

His feet technically were balanced, but the rest of him really wasn't.

Well, because for him, it wasn't a mechanical thing.

It was a soft-tissue thing, meaning it wasn't induced from poor mechanics.

It was induced.

I mean, again, this is us just kind of, like...

I'm going to take that as a compliment and say, yeah, you're right.

Because it wasn't, he's had fantastic hoof care his entire life.

He goes correctly.

His diet is on point.

This one, I mean, I'm not a vet, but after hearing the story and knowing him and just going back in time with the story with him landing on the Lego, that to me makes the most sense that he had a soft tissue injury that irritated one of those ligaments just a smidge and it was enough to kind of create like, the microchip was compromised.

Yeah, exactly.

There's like a tiny piece of gravel in the whole machine that's gumming up the works just a little bit and now there's no room for error with him.

His diet was really good.

His diet was really clean, except he was on grass.

He was on stressed grass.

Well, let's kind of go back a little bit to the role of diet.

So when...

Yeah, I guess it feels easy for me to say, because I've been doing this.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not that simple.

Explain the significance of diet with these cases.

So if your horse is in any kind of inflammatory state from their diet, so if they've got excess...

I am very hesitant to use the words processed foods because that's a whole conversation that we'll have in another episode, but...

Commercial?

Is that...

Commercial feeds, yeah, but it's not that simple.

If you have a lot of inflammatory ingredients, whether they're inflammatory because of excess spraying to the crops that cause them to be causing oxidative stress, or because you've got a lot of highly inflammatory oils that aren't balanced out by others, if you have underlying food sensitivities and or allergies, like so many things.

If you have mold, if you're...

Oh, when I think about mold.

Oh, please, I'm obsessed with mold and I have a mold protocol, if you ever want it.

Yes, just, yes.

Just broad spectrum, yes.

Anything that can throw the immune system into a state of inflammation can trigger this, especially like in my case, in a horse that is, like Taylor said, going correctly isn't neglected in his hoof care, but he's got a weak spot.

— Systemic Inflammation & Its Role in Navicular

He's got a chip in his armor.

And any inflammation goes right to that spot.

The Achilles heel.

It literally, it is, yeah, and it's literally his heel.

Damn it.

Damn it, Taylor, you're too good.

So he was, you know, I had a really clean diet for him.

He was at the time on a balanced mineral.

I can't remember if at the time it was Vermont Blend or Medicine Bag.

I can't remember what his mineral source was.

This was a while ago.

Okay.

I switched to omniate in the past two years and, you know, salt.

He was on camelina oil to balance out his omega profile.

There was nothing extra.

Like there were no fillers, right?

Like it was very clean.

He was at one point when this first started, I did put him on some herbal anti-inflammatories.

I put him on Devil's Claw and I put him on some extra vitamin C because I thought if he was trying to rebuild some tendon tissue, his liver was going to be working harder to get rid of those inflammatory cells.

And he needed a little antioxidant support.

Smart.

Yeah.

I didn't keep him on that for a super long time because I didn't want him to then not be able to produce it himself.

But it was a little experiment that I did.

And it did help a little bit.

But nothing helped enough because at the time, even though I had his diet pretty dialed in, he was on grass.

And he'd previously been on grass like in his whole life.

I mean, when he had this injury, he was on 40 acres of grass.

But it was really not stressed.

It had never been sprayed.

And this family owned this property since the Civil War.

Oh, it was like true virgin grass.

It was like the actual earth.

And just letting the horses live like horses.

That may be why I was able to get away with like, here's the original assault.

And then he walked off sound and was fine for a while.

I think that's why I was able to get away with that.

Because there was nothing triggering the inflammation to continue.

He was on a super clean diet with minimal added calories and the grass that he was on.

She would let it go to seed.

She would bush hog maybe once a year if the buttercups got out of control.

But because she didn't overdo it, she didn't spray, they never did.

They didn't stress it.

So this is an important time to mention.

Stressed grass actually has the highest sugar.

So I'll have clients sometimes bring me over to a paddock that the horse goes out.

And they're like, yeah, there's not much in there.

And I'm like, there's not much, but it packs a mighty punch, man.

The more stressed it is, if we got a lot of rain.

Yeah.

The grass is under attack by something grazing on it, or it being mowed down too small.

So it's going to conserve those sugars to try to stay alive.

And so it's literally like every bite is concentrated sugar cube.

Yeah.

And that's itis.

That creates itis.

I mean, I have super carpal tunnel.

If I have too much sugar, my hands fall off.

Oh, yeah.

And my knee is the same way, which is hard because I really be having a sweet treat every day.

But the good thing about our horses is that we control what they eat.

If we don't feed it to them, they're not eating it.

Can you say that one more time?

If we don't feed it to them, they are not eating it.

So don't fuck this up.

You have one job.

And be the crunchy mom.

Literally.

And do you know what?

This actually brings up a good point about timing of things.

If you have a horse, and Loki was really loud about this, and I appreciate him bringing this to our attention, if you have a horse that's doing so well over the winter, and then there's one trim in the spring that now they're like, Fuck you.

Ouch.

Yeah.

That tells me immediately that there's a sugar component.

Because when the seasons change, that tells me that the protocol of his management needs to shift.

And we came up with a protocol, and we'll circle back to that.

— Diet, Muzzles & Managing the Metabolic Component

But keeping their diet in check, grazing muzzles if they need it, or if you can't dry lot them.

Yeah.

Dry lot is like, is...

Or track.

Well, track is gold stamp.

Please get a track.

And also, if you have a horse that's very sensitive to sugars or maybe even too high a protein, whatever the case may be, test your hay.

Yeah, test your hay.

Test your hay. 30 minutes in hot water.

Let's, I think people significantly cover this, but if I neglect to say it, I'll have to go back.

If you soak your hay, do not let them have the water that's soaked out of it.

Because that is literally simple syrup.

So...

I can't even comment.

It's so disgusting.

It's where all, like, if you...

I've tasted it.

It literally tastes sweet.

You've tasted it?

Well, yeah.

Why am I surprised?

I mean, let's... come on.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

If you're going to soak your hay, make sure to then, like, if it's in a hay bag, like a hay net, which it should be, like, shake it out.

Just flap it out a little bit.

Get as much water off of it after you've soaked it as you can, because the water is where the sugar is going.

I'll just hang it for a little bit and let it...

Yeah, that's perfect... .let it drip.

That's perfect.

Don't, like, leave it in its bucket of soaked water and then give it to your horse.

That's kind of counterproductive.

That's disgusting.

And also, yeah, you're going to leave...

That's leaving your horse open to mold and other toxins.

Bad things, yeah.

Yeah.

All right, so we get their diet right.

Then we got to work on balancing their feet.

If there's some type of imbalance that can be exasperating the issues, whether it be extra torque on the soft tissues, exceptionally long toe, low heel, whatever the case may be, have your vet and farrier work together to come up with a trim that's going to be appropriate for them.

And if a shoe package is appropriate or prescribed, that's between them.

But a lot of the stuff that we focus on for rehab is more so soft tissue rehab.

So think about if you've had an injury and you've had to go to PT, the whole point of this type of rehab, at least the way that we do it in our world, is focusing on getting the tendons and ligaments strong enough and well enough to where they can heal correctly and facilitate proper movement.

Yep.

If they're not, you're going to be right back to where you are.

Yeah.

Putting them in an environment where the terrain is pretty soft.

It's pretty steady.

We don't need them running up and down hills.

We don't need a bunch of obstacles.

Make sure that they're with a buddy who will make them move, but not aggressively.

Yeah.

They're welcome to play, but if they're doing nonsense because they're trying to protect themselves from a pasture bully, that's no good.

Like controlled movement.

Like if it's just going to be a gal pal that you're just going to go in like- This is your friend you go on hot girl walks with.

Yes.

You put on your squishy shoes and you get your water with vitamins and minerals in it and you go on your hot girl walk.

That's it.

That's literally all they- That's honestly I just wrote a book on how to cure an avicular.

Hot girl walks.

That's it.

You got to get the tie right, put them in an environment where they are controlled because we do need them to move.

I think that was a huge piece of Loki's rehab.

It was huge and he kept telling me like, mom, I just got to go.

I just got to go and it's hard to parse out where he's walking on lava and just running away from pain.

When he just needs to move, he absolutely needs to move.

And this is like, I didn't realize at the time there was such a developed community of women who are changing the narrative around navicular.

I didn't know that I wasn't alone.

The whole ass world, man.

I didn't know that navicular rehab existed.

— What Kahlan Wishes She Had Known Sooner

I didn't know there were books to teach you how to do groundwork correctly so your horse had the best chance of success.

I didn't know there were women who would drive to your house and drop you off scoot boots with pads in them to make sure that they fit your horse correctly so he could move right so that you could be successful.

Like I didn't know that these things existed.

I thought I was alone.

And I was literally told there's nothing I can do.

And there's so much you can do.

And like it's most important to me now to not lose hope if he has a bad day.

Because it's just one day.

It's just one day.

If you like you could only do what you can do.

And there's so much you can do.

Like facilitating species appropriate environment, movement, living is paramount.

That is the first thing.

The body has a miraculous ability to heal itself.

If you give it the right tools, if you give your horse the ingredients for success, they will heal.

And they may heal to, you know, give them five extra years of life.

I don't know, you know, your horse may be more severe than mine.

They may heal to, now, this idiot went on a trail ride with Taylor and tried to launch up an embankment and walked off sound, like...

There is stuff to be done, and there is a support system out there.

I think, like, I don't know, maybe we call it action items.

Action items for you and your horse.

Call a nutritionist.

Call your farrier.

If they are not hearing you, call a different one.

Listen to your gut.

Listen to your gut and listen to your horse.

Because I was told by so many people that he was fine.

And then, like, so many people told me he was fine, he was fine, he was fine.

And then someone told me, he's not fine, he'll never be fine, and, you know, he's never gonna be happy again.

And that's just not true.

Like, it's just not true.

If he's having a bad day, now I know to go back, like, if he turns a little odd, if he turns a little out, I know it's time to put his scoot boots on and go do a hot girl walk in a safe, controlled space.

It's not the day for a trail ride, it's the day for straddling a pole.

It's literally PT day.

And I have it all the time, I probably do that two or three days a week.

And that's where, you know, in the past, we've talked about it, and we can link some stuff down below.

We'll definitely have some links on our website for book recommendations and podcast recommendations and just resources.

Alicia Harlov has a really good book, if we want to shout her out.

She has done so much work.

She owns a rehab track system facility.

This is literally her life.

And without her podcast, like, I would have felt so alone.

She's been a huge educator in the field and has really helped a lot of us make navicular rehab more attainable.

And, you know, I mean, to your point, though, Kahlan, like, I know this is, like, a really upsetting topic for you, but using your words, you had no reason to know that this world existed...

Yeah... .until you had to, like, until you were...

Find it.

Yeah, until you were thrown into the fire.

Yeah.

Don't...

You are your horse's advocate.

You owe them every ounce of knowledge you can shove into your brain to make them better.

And the resources are out there.

And these people are so cool.

Like, there is not a single person that I've been in contact with through this journey of navicular rehab that hasn't been, like, incredibly loving and supportive.

And, like, hey, have you tried this?

Oh, where do you get this?

This antioxidant has a discount code on this website.

The grass is coming in.

You might want to do that.

Like, just the little things that we do to support each other help our horses do better.

And I think that's so important to mention because it's so easy to feel alone in this.

Well, any of those diagnoses, I feel, can do that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And, like, when I say there's no margin for error with this, it's like...

— No Margin for Error: The Rehab Protocol

Well, it's just recognizing the protocol that works for him.

Yeah.

And I figured out, we...

Oh, my God, we.

Yeah.

How dare I?

No, no, no.

We figured out Loki.

He's like, I've tried.

We've tried all kinds of composites, and he really is like a...

He's such a freedom, freedom boy.

He just...

He wants to be naked all the time.

He doesn't like...

Taylor has been gracious enough to help me manage his feet the best way that I can that he's told me he likes, which has been really cool and empowering and also scary, because I'm not good at it.

Well, because now what we're doing, since the...

Since the grass came in, we're having to do just kind of micro-trims once a week, and that's been doing really...

That's been working beautifully for him.

So, Kahlan has just been bringing the toe back every, like, 10 days or so, and if he has an outgy day, he goes into his boots.

Because that goes back to how we're actually rehabbing the soft tissue is proper landing.

They have to land correctly and in a controlled way.

And that's, like, what they do in human PT.

It's correct movements and proper posture, and then that allows the soft tissue to heal how it's supposed to heal, and that's all we're doing.

But, you know, with boots and things like that, it really kind of matters what their comfort level is.

I have some horses who, if the soft tissue is too injured, they don't like the instability of cloud boots.

No, I could see that, yeah.

There's too much movement.

So they might be a candidate to go into a scoot boot or a cavallo boot, something like that.

More structure, a little more firm.

More integrity.

Yeah.

So play around with the boots that they like and the boots that are going to allow them to have the most appropriate heel-first landing.

Yep.

And do your groundwork exercises.

Like, do your PT exercises.

Yep.

We do our little exercises every couple of days.

And if I don't, I know about it.

Like, it makes a huge difference.

Yeah.

So get creative, use your resources.

But I think most importantly with all of this, like, thanks for letting me share my experience.

But for other people, like, don't lose hope.

This isn't like a death sentence.

This isn't the worst news of your life.

There's stuff that can be done and your horse will thank you for it.

I mean, I've even had some horses where they have these horrible diagnoses and their radiographs are a disaster.

Like, their cough and bones, or their cough and bones, their navicular bones are just a train wreck.

When we fix their diet, we just pull out all inflammatory markers or factors.

Gucci.

Well, you said to me the other day, when he was having a bad day, I think it was after his spring trim, and he, like, went back, and I was like, ah, I'm freaking out.

You were like, don't, like, don't, he's been sound with these bones.

Yep.

Because I was worried, like, oh, my God, do I need rads again?

Like, is this getting worse?

And now...

Same bones.

It's the same bones.

Same bones, babe.

Like, there's not a single one of us that's going to get out of this lifetime without evidence.

Like, that's just not, that's not going to happen.

What does that mean?

What do you mean?

Like, when they dig out my body, they're going to see the heel spur on my heel from my improper landing, right?

That doesn't mean I had a bad life.

You know, they're going to see healed fractures.

They're going to see Ryder's bone on the inside of my femurs.

You know?

No one gets out with a perfect skeleton.

There.

Okay.

That's what you meant.

Yeah.

And you can still be sound.

Like, don't...

Like, imaging is really important.

Don't forget that.

But what you do with it is what matters.

Like, don't just take it and be like, okay, well, now my life is over.

Because that's what I did for two days, and it sucked.

I don't recommend it.

I mean, radiocrats are absolutely fantastic, but there's more to the story than that.

— Radiographs Are Just One Piece of the Puzzle

And I think even going back to what Kahlan was saying about body posture, both static and dynamic, the way that they're carrying themselves is significant.

I remember, I feel like I talk about this man all the time.

Jean-Luc Cornille?

Yes.

He had a post a little while back about navicular disease and or syndrome, because he just kind of clumped him together.

And his discussion was how he rehabs improper landing just by teaching them proper biomechanics, like teaching a horse how to actually balance and use their bodies correctly.

Well, that's been a game changer for me.

That's the whole thing.

Yeah, that's it.

And if I can keep doing that, it's a cycle.

It's a vicious cycle in both directions.

It's just maintenance.

If you can get them moving well, they will continue to move well.

Yep.

You know, like, it's that simple.

If they are moving wrong, they will get more broken.

So you just have to be on the correct side of the cycle.

You just got to point the arrow.

Yeah.

And horses are incredible.

They are so smart.

And do your bodywork, do your chiro, do...

Those things, your sure foot pads, some horses do really well with sure foot pads.

They're doing a lot in their body when they've got this going on in their feet to compensate for the discomfort down below.

So don't leave that out.

Like, make sure you do have a body worker out.

The balance through the movement type nerve impingement release has really helped because they, like I was saying at the very beginning, that whole quadrant on that front left where he had the injury was super tight and blocked.

And that's still where he's going to tend to compensate.

Like, he's still going to want to protect that, which is why one of his first symptoms was that bicycle feeling on a circle.

He didn't feel comfortable opening up that front left and, like, confidently throwing his heel forward and landing correctly.

So he just kind of, like, scrunched up.

And then that's super uncomfortable.

Some horses will get super cranky.

Some will have behavioral stuff, like they'll refuse or they'll buck or whatever, like anything that a horse is trying to tell you.

Mine did not do that.

He just ran away.

Do you know how I could always tell with Loki, which is insane, because I wouldn't look at his feet.

I'd look at how he held his neck.

Oh, oh my gosh.

Thank you for saying that.

I'd look at how he held his neck.

That's so true.

He almost does this.

And it looks really beautiful if you don't know what you're looking at, because he holds his neck higher and super tense like a sexy stallion does.

But it's very...

Braced.

He looks braced and he leans forward and it makes him look over in the knee.

Yes.

And when he's correct, he'll stand square and his head and neck are more parallel with the rest of his body.

Like he's more of a horizontal line and you could see it in his eyes.

It's...

The posture is just everything.

I feel like I'm having this whole new love affair with my understanding of posture and balance.

Me too.

It's pretty cool.

And it's never over.

Like you're never...

There's never gonna be a day where you get on your horse and go, yes, our posture is perfect.

Everything we're doing is perfect.

I've won the game.

That's not a thing.

There's so much to always be working on, which is cool.

Because it gives you more time with your horse, more fun stuff to do with your horse.

Yeah.

I think I was telling you earlier, I have another navicular case that we're in the throes of it right now.

We just started doing the whole booting protocol and everything like that.

And I'm really fortunate because this owner also is super into biomechanics.

So I knew I could kind of lay it on thick with her.

So I was like, all right, if you're ready to get into the weeds, let's fucking go, sister.

So I sent her some really cool stuff.

— Equiband, Resources & Tools That Helped

I love the Equiband.

Yep.

Amazing.

The Eagle Pro 6, I think, is my new favorite thing of all time, which is like a proprioceptive body wrap that helps them just be more body aware.

So if you have a horse, in this client in particular, this horse just kind of will like just run.

She just falls forward.

Oh.

Yeah.

Oh, twins.

She runs forward.

OK.

Or she falls forward kind of thing.

OK.

And so I was chatting with her mom about it.

I was like, maybe we can play around with something like this.

And I think she bought one last night, like right now.

Immediately.

She's done.

Say last.

She's done.

Say last.

But stuff like that circles back to what we were saying with the, oh my God, Jacques.

Jean Luc?

No.

Jec Ballou?

Jec Ballou, yes.

That's what we were saying with Jec Ballou, Jean Luc Cornille.

It's all about how they actually use their bodies.

If, if, if, if, if, you know, the foot is balanced.

Yeah.

If they're capable of doing it, that's where you, like, balance, get the balance, the hoof balanced, get the diet managed currently and cleaned up.

And then when you do those PT exercises, they actually carry you way further.

They're making the difference in the horse's overall healing and comfort.

And then it's much easier from there.

Like, you know, it's not something that I ever stop thinking about, ever.

But it makes it like, it's kind of like when you use a crock pot, you can turn it on.

This is gonna be good.

No, listen.

Like, you can turn it on and it does the work for you.

If you teach them how to use their body, they're doing the work for you, because they're healing as they move through the pasture and with their friends.

If they're moving their body correctly, they're healing without you having to do too much.

It's true.

Oh, I like it.

Okay.

See, it's like a crock pot.

It makes sense, Taylor.

It does make sense.

It does.

I digress, yeah.

Yeah, you get it.

You get it.

I do.

That's so good.

But again, this isn't like, you know, a cure-all recipe.

These are just things that we've noticed and things that we've tried and things that have been successful.

But, you know, it's not a one-size-fits-all company.

Everybody's navigator journey is so different.

And like we've said in a couple different ways in this episode, like horses will present differently based on their different personalities, too.

So listen to your horse, advocate for your horse, and start here.

Start with the diet.

Start with proper movement.

Talk to your farrier.

And like, don't lose hope.

Ever.

Not allowed.

Unauthorized.

No.

And honestly, I feel like that's what, for me, this is one of the reasons that I am so excited to be doing this podcast and getting together with you so often.

Because we say it all the time, we want to be a resource, but we don't just want to be a resource for teaching you how to do it.

I want to hug everyone who has an avicular horse, because it fucking sucks.

And it's so cool to feel like I have this toolkit now and this line of women behind me that are like, yeah, he's going to be okay.

Oh yeah.

And I want to share that with everybody.

So email us, reach out to us, send us slow motion videos of your horse, ask questions.

If you want to start this journey, if you feel like you're here, this may be something that you need to look into.

We're happy to be a resource for you.

We'll link some other resources in the show notes and on our website, some resources that have helped us personally.

And yeah, thanks for listening to my story about my son.

Thanks for Sharon.

Yeah, of course.

Loki, the man of the hour.

Thank you so much for everything.

I couldn't have, I would be in a fetal position without you.

What I have learned from you and Loki, what I learned from every single case, every horse I work with, the gratitude is so mutual because the next horse that I meet that is struggling with something, that's not me.

— Closing Reflections & Gratitude

That's Loki's work.

Yeah.

And that's kind of how I like to see it, is that I'm just, I'm the vessel.

A lot of miles, but I'm just the vessel.

Well-loved.

I'll talk to you soon.

Okay, talk to you in five minutes.

Talk to you in five minutes, babe.

Cheers.

If you or a friend have a topic, story or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

E2: Kissing Spine Goodbye: Leah part 1

Wed, 04 Jun 2025 03:37:03 GMT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Kissing Spine can be a tough diagnosis. In this episode, Taylor share's her homebred mare's journey through the behaviors leading up to the diagnosis, the diagnostic process, and management. Taylor and Kahlan discuss management and life post-surgery, and most importantly, what could've been done different. Taylor CL Schouten, MS, APF-I Hoof Care Practicioner Wild Hoof Equine LLC www.wildhoofequine.com Kahlan Ettere Holistic Nutritionist Wise Choice Equine Wellness LLC Check out our website: www.theredmareproject.com Follow along on Facebook!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Intro: Taylor's Kissing Spine Episode Overview

Hey guys, Taylor here.

Today Kahlan and I will be discussing Kissing Spine and my marriage journey through the symptoms and behaviors leading up to her diagnosis, the diagnostic process, treatment, and rehab.

Her story is going to be a two-part series because well, she's just, she's got a lot going on.

If you and your horse are facing a diagnosis of Kissing Spine, are in the throes of rehab, or just want to learn more about Kissing Spine, grab some snacks.

This is for you.

Welcome to The Red Mare Project.

But you rode today.

How was it?

How was your ride?

She was good.

Yeah, she felt really good.

It was a little warm, a little warm first.

We had to do a lot of breaks.

Oh, okay.

Does she overheat easy?

She, well, not necessarily overheat, but it does fatigue her a little bit.

Well, she's doing hard work typically.

Yeah.

But, you know, she's 19 as well, even though she doesn't really, like, you would never know, but it was a little toasty for her.

Well, no, because we had a nice breeze, but I think we're actually, like, in the Thunderdome of summer.

— Catching Up: Leah's Recent Ride & Summer Heat

Yeah, it all of a sudden is way more humid, which I love.

Yeah, you're from the jungle.

I don't know that Leah loves it.

She doesn't like nature or sun or humidity.

She's a princess.

Yeah, she's from the city.

Dude, I was speaking of, like, being in the Thunderdome.

Last night, I was checking out at the grocery store, and after, like, a 12-hour day, so it looked.

You could tell.

In the cashier, when I was checking out, it looked at me and was like, you've been outside.

And I was just like, oh, can you, I was just being facetious.

I was like, can you see it or smell it?

And this dude said, oh, I can smell it.

I was like, I'm going to collect my things, and I'll be on my way.

Thank you very much for your time, sir.

Goodbye.

I'm going to go die now.

I promise I take baths.

I'm just a fairy.

I'm just a fairy, please.

That's so funny.

Did he seem bothered by it or was he just commenting?

It was actually really funny.

He wasn't trying to be a dick about it, but it was- He was just calling you out a little bit on your ripeness.

I'm like, okay, I'm going to go die.

Bye, I'm going to go host myself off.

That's hilarious.

But yeah, so we're in the Thunderdome, so usually for workouts and things like that, I have to be cognizant for her and do ride more in the morning and stuff like that.

But yeah, she's been going really good, which is not, I mean, I don't want to say it's new that she's going really well, but...

You're seeing the fruits of your labor.

It took, yes, and it took a long time to get there.

This is 19 years of earning.

Yeah, Taylor didn't just, this didn't just fall in her lap.

She's got a beautiful, perfect horse, but she's not for the faint of heart.

I was like, we rode at her barn a couple weeks ago, almost a month ago now.

It was so fun.

It was the most fun I've had in so long, honestly.

It was so nice to actually get to watch her after, like, we'd yap to each other every day about each other's horse.

— Watching Taylor Ride: A Beautiful Moment

It was so nice to experience that and see you have so much fun.

Like, you both looked relaxed, like you were just, like, lying around.

Dude, thank you, because it really, it has been a monster of a journey, and that's, like, what we wanted to kind of unpack a little bit today, because it hasn't always been that way.

Part one.

Part one, because this is probably a trilogy.

I foresee it being a trilogy, honestly.

She deserves it, right, Leah?

The whole thing.

Hi, baby.

They're about to feed, so you're probably going to hear some knickers and...

Some happy knickers.

Some happy screams.

Some love a happy scream.

Happy scream, yeah.

So yeah, she's 19 now, and let's time travel back.

I got really lucky with her for the first half of her life, which I feel like a lot of us do.

Yeah.

When they're young, they can get away with living off of Taco Bell and Mountain Dew, and just dicking around.

Their bodies can have these imbalances.

They don't care.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah.

You cut a leg off, they keep going.

It's fine.

Until it's not.

Until it's not, yeah.

So this must have been six years ago?

Oh, was it that long?

I didn't realize it was that long.

Yeah.

She was 14.

No, hold on.

She was 14.

She's 19 now, so five years ago.

So I'm a liar.

Yeah.

So no six years is when it really started to show up.

She just wasn't going right.

Just like ADR, if you will, just like ain't doing right kind of stuff.

Not like lame, but just not...

She wasn't thriving.

Not comfortable.

She wasn't thriving.

And her feet weren't fantastic in retrospect, but a lot of bucking.

She would buck a lot.

She was refusing a lot.

And she just wasn't good.

She wasn't good.

And in retrospect, looking back now, I mean, it was all very obvious.

Yeah.

But I didn't know.

Taylor from the future knows that's easy.

Taylor from five years ago did not.

She didn't know what to do.

She didn't.

And so we took her to, well, actually, hold on, rewind.

All the bucking, because a lot of it was behavior stuff.

And like he said, she is a bad bitch.

Don't preach her error.

But she's such a good girl.

She is.

She's a really solid citizen.

And but she just, there was a lot of behavior stuff going on.

She was girthy.

She just, she didn't like to be touched, blah, blah, blah, kind of all that stuff.

And we just always kind of chalked it up to just her being a mare.

Which, famous last words.

Right.

And but it just all kind of compounded, and it got to the point where like we couldn't compete cross-country anymore because she was refusing.

Really?

Have I told you how this mare would refuse?

No, because I just watched you literally float through a field over jumps that you hadn't jumped in years.

So it's so hard to picture.

My sister in Christ, it was zero self-preservation.

The way this mare would refuse was it was almost an art form.

So there were two occasions, and this was at a poplar when we used to go down there.

So there was one time, it was just a big log, like a fallen tree, big log.

— Early Warning Signs: Trail Ride Refusals & Dangerous Behavior

The mare jumped it, but she just put her front legs over and then stopped.

Oh, that's scary.

So she was straddling it, so my legs were just my feet were on the stirrups, of course.

Almost touching the log.

Oh, they were on the log.

Okay.

And she just stopped there.

Okay.

And she just turned around and looked at me, and I swear to God, she said, what are you going to do now?

And I said, I don't know.

I don't know, dear.

I don't know.

And we can laugh about it now.

Yeah.

It was probably heartbreaking at the time and scary.

I didn't know what to do, and she just figured it out.

She just walked backwards and drug her forelegs over it.

It was insane.

That makes sense, though.

Insane.

So that was kind of like red flag number one, like big red flag number one.

She's not one for nonsense.

That wasn't for fun.

And then the second time, and this was what like put the nail in the coffin.

There was an oxer out there, and she dumped just the first part and landed in the middle and stood there.

And I was, oh shit, oh shit.

What do we do now?

And she figured, she's, I mean, she's a cat.

She can get out.

And she did it.

I just dropped my reins.

I was like, sister, you got it from here.

You got yourself into this mess, you're gonna get yourself out.

And God bless, she did.

But that's when I was like, all right, there's something.

This isn't just for fun.

This is major.

She's not being difficult or ridiculous.

She's just, something's wrong.

This is major.

So like, what was the first step in figuring out what it was?

Well, at the time, I didn't, I mean, I had support, but I didn't have a lot of support.

And I don't think I was confident enough in my skills to really, like, grab the bull by the horns and run into diagnostics.

Sure.

We just kind of switched gears and focused more so on Dressage.

I was like, we're just going to leave jumping behind, and we're just going to focus on Dressage.

Okay, yeah.

Which is fine.

That makes sense, yeah.

Because at that point, I was like, do you know what, maybe she just doesn't like it.

Sure.

She couldn't do downbanks, physically could not do downbanks, which in retrospect checks out.

But I just lost my train of thought.

Where was I?

Oh, okay.

I was like, do you know what, we're not going to jump, we're just going to do Dressage.

She's really good at it.

And then that's when bucking came up a little bit more, flying changes were really, really hard.

She, like, head tossing was a big thing.

She only does that if there's bugs involved, do you think?

Well, now.

Now, yeah.

But, yeah, that's what we were thinking, like, maybe there's some type of, like, photic sensitivity, her trigeminal nerve could be having some stuff.

Anyway, it just kind of all compounded and built up, and it got to the point where she was so, like, body sore and uncomfortable.

I didn't ride her for, like, six months.

Wow.

Yeah, because I was like, I was like, I don't want, I don't have a lord.

I think you just need a break.

I don't know what to do.

Yeah.

So was there, with the bucking, was there something that triggered it, like a particular movement that she couldn't do that would trigger the bucking?

— Bucking Episodes: What Triggered Them?

Or just like?

That's a good question.

I honestly, I can't remember.

I would assume anytime I asked her to compress.

That makes sense.

I would assume.

Yeah.

But she did have, because she's so damn athletic.

I don't think you've ever seen it because you've only seen her, like, happy.

She made it look easy, everything we did, so I believe it.

She can kick my foot out of the strip.

Oh, okay.

That's a thing.

Loki can do that, but that's not surprising at all.

Yeah, that's her little party trick.

Yeah, which- That's fun.

Another red flag.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

But yeah, to answer your question about if there was anything in particular.

It just became everything at that point.

Yeah.

If I ever asked her to compress, that really was it, I would say.

So then you realized like, something's wrong.

Six months off.

After the six months, what did you do?

Well, in the middle of it, we did have- I had a different vet out because I was just like, maybe just fresh eyes.

Let's just do fresh eyes.

And we were thinking that there was something going on with her ovaries.

Because in the past, she has had some like stuff.

Little stuff.

Yeah, some stuff.

And that was kind of a fruitless endeavor.

Yeah.

And then eventually, I was like, oh, well, I don't know why I didn't think about it before, but I was like, let's just take her to the teaching hospital.

Yeah.

And see what we get.

Like x-ray the whole ass horse?

Do the whole thing.

Love that.

The whole fucking thing.

And we did.

We did.

And we radiographed her feet.

We radiographed her back.

I don't think we did her neck at the time, but they did like a full, yeah, full lanyard seatbelt.

Okay.

Like the whole thing.

And what did her feet look like at the time?

Because I know like now you've obviously made that in your entire career and she's under control.

Yeah.

But what did her feet look like at the time?

She was thin-soled.

There was definitely some medial lateral imbalances.

Actually like some pretty profound.

Okay.

At the time, did you know what you were looking at?

Not a clue.

Okay.

Not a clue.

She was barefoot.

Yeah, but definitely some significant medial lateral imbalances.

Some major ass side bone.

Oh.

Yeah.

She's got some major side bone in there.

And she also at the time, I didn't realize it then, even though someone probably told me, but she had some wicked high-low.

Oh, interesting.

Wicked.

Yeah.

It wasn't until Casey Sexton, who I apprenticed with, but she was the one who brought it to my attention.

She was like, hey, shit's fucked.

Yes.

She's like, hey, sister.

What are you going to do about this?

This is bad.

She wrote severe high-low on the notes.

And at the time, I had no idea what it was.

Sure.

Not a clue.

But it was pretty loud, and her feet were just, they were tiny, but they were like, they were just so inflamed.

She had thin soles, wild imbalances, high-low, and that was just from the hairline down.

— Hoof Imbalances & First Clues from the Ground Up

Damn.

Yeah.

And I remember at the time when the vet was reviewing the rads, he said, just, you know, give these to your ferrier and just a few swipes of the rasp on the high foot and then, or on the high side, and that's it.

Yeah.

Which, okay.

Sure.

You're like, I don't, sure.

Write it down.

I'll pass it along.

Yeah.

Pass it along.

Yeah.

But yeah, we did, yeah, we did a flexion test.

I'm trying to think what else we did.

They were thinking for a time that it could be a suspensory thing.

Which was scary.

Of course.

That's like always the scariest.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It could be.

So they radiographed her back, and there were three or four contact points, three.

So from head to tail, they have 54 vertebrae.

All right.

And then in their back, they have their vertebrae, of course, but then from there's kind of there's bony projections that come up, and those are called the dorsal spinous proseses.

So it looks like a little sail almost, like a fin.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Yeah.

So on their back, they have their vertebrae, and then from there, the bony projections that do look like like sails.

I love that.

Like a dorsal fin on a fish.

Yeah, totally.

And if those touch, it's called kissing spine.

And if they touch and knock enough, it can create inflammation in there, and then it can create bone remodeling on those dorsal spinous processes.

And that's your kissing spine.

So when you say that she had contact points, that's the amount of vertebrae that were touching.

Correct, yeah.

All right.

And how many was it?

I don't remember.

Like three to four.

And I can look back at her radiographs.

I swear I've repressed like all of this.

That's fair.

I don't blame you.

I was going to ask you if you know which ones.

Because I know it typically occurs between T13, T18, and T15, but I didn't know if that was the same.

Like that was her story or?

Probably.

Because those are the main ones.

It's in the archives of the brain.

Yeah.

It's hiding.

It's repressed.

Yeah, I get that.

So the radiographer found those contact points and he said, we should probably nerve her back.

And then you get on and see if that's the thing.

And I did notice an improvement.

I did.

And I think an important thing to mention right now is that when all this was happening, this was days before COVID broke out.

I remember you telling me this.

Days.

And so the mare was insured at the time.

Amazing.

Which is great.

Yeah.

We love it.

But the mare was insured.

And with insurance, if you get a diagnosis, you have like, I can't remember.

I think it's like 180 days.

Oh, that's right.

I forgot.

Yeah, that's right.

If so, like if you're in a due treatment.

You have to do it within that time frame or they won't pay for it.

Exactly.

So, and the surgeons, the doctors did a fantastic job.

They were supportive.

But anyway, she got the diagnosis of kissing spine.

We nerve her back.

I got on and I thought she felt a little bit better.

It wasn't like a cure-all, but I was so desperate for an answer.

— Seeking Answers: The Diagnostic Journey Begins

I spoke with the vet who was doing it, and he said there's two treatments that you can do.

You can do a conservative approach, which can take months to years, and you can do surgery.

So the conservative approach is doing more like injections.

You can do like steroid injections, biologics, things like that.

Or you can do physical therapy, which will impact that a little bit more at the tail end of this.

Mesotherapy, which is like injections that are like just underneath the mesoderm, just like just underneath the skin for like painkillers.

I think they put like some vitamins and things like that in there.

Ask your vet.

So like little quaddles under the skin of stuff to calm down the inflammation is basically it?

Yeah, exactly.

Cool.

Yeah, yeah.

So you can do all that or surgery.

Okay.

And you chose surgery, right?

I did.

And, you know, in retrospect, it's definitely like the biggest regret of my life to have done that.

But I do have to give myself some grace on that, because it was days before COVID broke out when she was diagnosed, and pretty much she got this diagnosis.

The vet said, you can do the surgery.

And this was wild.

He's like, she's here now.

You can just leave her, and we can do the surgery tomorrow.

And I was like, okay.

Can I have a minute to think about it, please?

My brother in Christ.

Half-alt.

Slow down.

Let me take her home.

Let me think this over.

So there's a couple different types of surgery that you can do.

You can do the leg snip, which is there's a ligament that runs through where the dorsal spinous processes are, and it...

The theory is if you cut the ligament, it's like cutting a strand of pearls where it just like loosens them.

Yeah, that feels like the scariest option to me, actually.

Because like with bone, when bones healed, it's healed.

With tendons and ligaments and others, like all soft tissue, it's never quite the same.

Yeah.

So that was one option.

The other one is a bone shave where they actually have to do the ligament snip.

Like if you do the bone shave, you end up doing the ligament snip by default.

To get to the bone?

Yeah.

And then there's also, they can actually do like a full resection where they take out portions of the affected spinous proseses.

So they can shave it a little bit or they just cut the whole thing out or they cut the ligament.

So like they cut the whole like dorsal part?

Yeah.

And so there's no chance it can touch?

Correct.

Versus just the bony change that's causing the contact?

Ask that again?

So like...

I don't know how to ask it.

So like there's one option where they just...

Cut the whole thing out.

So they have no sale?

They have no dorsal part?

No, just gone.

Okay.

That's resection.

And then they have a bone shave where like where they do touch, they just like thin it a little bit.

They just fillet it down.

So they're not kissing anymore?

Exactly.

The surgeon said we can go ahead and do bone resection and the way that it was pitched.

And again, this was this was really fresh.

— The Surgery Decision: A Brand New Procedure

This was actually a relatively new surgery at the time.

Oh, okay.

Because this was, let me think what year this was. 2020?

Yeah.

It was 2020.

Wow.

Oh, my God.

That's why I asked earlier.

I thought, so we were talking about timeframe.

Yeah.

And I thought I remembered you saying something about COVID and like the pressure that was on you at the time.

Yeah.

So March, April of 2020.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

She was diagnosed in February, surgery, and March.

Got it.

Oh, yeah.

Holy shit.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

It was fast.

So COVID broke out, and the surgeon called me and said, listen, you can do the surgery.

If you're going to do it, this is the perfect time.

You're in the window of insurance.

The world is shutting down.

You can't do anything with this horse anyway.

If you're going to rehab, this is the time to rehab.

I mean, good point.

He made really great points.

And then he put me in touch with a few folks who've done the surgery and have had fantastic success with it.

That was nice of him.

He was really cool.

Yeah.

Like he hugged me after every appointment.

Oh my God, I love him.

Really cool guy.

Yeah, good man.

Good man.

Awesome.

How about that guy?

Yeah.

We definitely appreciate the humanity that went into it.

Yeah.

So and then he at the end was like, or at the end of the conversation when we were trying to figure out what to do, he said, if you take them out, you never have to worry about it again.

Okay.

Which in the moment feels like a, yes, good.

I never have to think about this again.

Yes.

But now I'm like, no.

I think about it every day.

I think about it every goddamn day.

So thanks, but.

No thanks.

Didn't work out that way.

Yeah.

So, yeah, we went ahead, we did the surgery, only took out two.

Okay.

And brought her home, did the rehab.

I became a rehab freak.

And I was really concerned about whether or not to do it.

Because it was general anesthesia, they laid her down.

Scary.

Yeah, big scary.

Beforehand, I was calling my, I called my trainer who a few months prior to the diagnosis had moved out west.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that was a big hit, because I feel like things might have worked out a little bit differently if she was closer, because I didn't really have, like, a go-to at the time, because I was, like, in between coaches, I didn't really have, like...

A person to lean on.

Yeah.

That so sucks.

I've been there.

That's really a hard place.

And I think, I'm hoping, you know, that's, like, the goal of this whole podcast, is for us to kind of, like, if you don't have people, like...

We'll be your people.

We're your people.

There are so many of us bitches that just really want to connect and, like, have so many stories that we can benefit from for each other.

That's kind of the whole point of this, but anyway.

Okay.

So, yeah, so she, I reached out to her, and she coached me through it.

She was really supportive.

And I reached out to my dentist at the time, or not my, Leah's dentist, not my dentist.

And at the time, it was like, hey, man, what do you think about this?

— The Best Advice She Got: Don't Do the Surgery

And she gave me some, in retrospect, the soundest advice.

And she said, Taylor, don't do the surgery.

It's going to destabilize the back because in order to get to the actual dorsal spinous processes, you have to cut through the longest and mostorous eye, which is like that big ass muscle that stabilizes the entire back.

The whole horse, yeah.

The whole thing, yeah.

Oh, wow.

And yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, so she was like, Taylor, don't do it.

There's a guy down, there's, I know a guy.

Yeah, I got a guy.

I got a guy.

But she said there is a master trainer who is actually this untapped resource.

He's down in, not Madison, he's like in, let me, it's like southeast Georgia, Jean-Luc Corneilly.

Why do I know that name?

I've probably mentioned him before.

Let's fucking get him on.

We, oh, he's, I would love to.

He's on the list?

He's on the list.

Hell yeah.

Okay, yeah, that's awesome.

But he's, he's a master trainer, like a classic old school French master trainer.

Oh, wow.

At Georgia, that's so funny.

I know.

I know, he's here.

He's like in our backyard.

And anyway, the dentist said, you need to reach out to this guy.

His thing is a rehab, and obviously he does a bunch of like kissing spine cases, but he also does a lot of navicular rehab.

But he rehabs it through postural, it's postural changes through body movement.

Hell yeah.

Like, so.

That's awesome.

The man.

He's the guy.

He's the guy to call.

Yeah.

And my dentist at the time, she said, you need to call him.

You need to fix her feet.

That's what you need to do.

You need to fix her feet.

And that's where it all began.

That's where it started.

Even that, so she planted the seed, but it took a long time for that to become what it is today.

Yeah.

So in retrospect, I should have listened to her.

And if she's listening, shout out, shout out, you did change my life.

I just was too stupid to hear it in the moment.

No, you were scared and desperate, and you just wanted her to feel better.

I mean, stands to reason, pop them out.

They can't be a problem.

Yeah, that's true.

It stands to perfect reason.

And at this point, you didn't know, like I didn't five years ago either, the whole-horse perspective of all of this and how important...

I mean, here I am, sitting like a shrimp with a shrimp on my shirt, about to preach about posture, but...

Sorry.

Yeah, sometimes you have to sit in the rotting positions.

Yeah.

You have to.

It's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So...

You ended up doing it.

We did it.

Don't dwell.

It's okay.

My insides are 20-20.

And I think the part that really ignited everything was when I finally rehabbed her back.

I did everything.

I followed it to a T.

Of course.

I was told I could get back on her after six weeks.

I did not.

Yeah.

I don't feel like that muscle is gonna...

They're cutting it.

Six weeks, dude.

Six weeks.

That's crazy.

I was like, nah, I'm gonna wait.

So I did like 12 weeks.

Good for you.

So she wore the Equiband, which was amazing.

— Equiband & Conservative Rehab Begins

We rode in it today.

Oh, really?

Okay.

I love it. 10 minutes max.

No more than that.

It's too much on them.

But I just do the bellyband.

The buttband, I think, is too much and kind of creates...

Yeah, I think it's just too much.

Almost like kyphosis kind of position.

Yeah, I don't dig it.

So we just do the bellyband.

And I walked her over ground poles.

We walked over cavated leadies.

I had her straddle poles, just a lot of stuff just to...

Classic rehab stuff.

Honestly, the pole straddle, it's so much harder than you would ever think.

Oh my God.

I challenge every single one of you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, I challenge every single one of you to go out and get your horse and get a ground pole and have them stand two legs...

How do I describe that?

Both lefts on one side and both rights on one side.

I was going to say two on each side, but that could be confused.

It's so hard.

But once I get good at it, I've seen such a big difference.

Like, if he can't do it, I know that I need to go back to whatever I was doing when he was strong.

Like, that's like a good, like, canary in the coal mine for me.

Oh, cool.

Is the pole straddle.

Because he's so close coupled in the back that if he's not strong enough to really stand under himself on either side of the pole, I know something's wrong.

Oh, that's smart.

It's always good to have, like, a metric of, like, where a horse is visibly, yeah.

Anyway, so you rehabbed.

How long, you said 12 weeks before you got on her.

I imagine it was really slow work.

Oh, yeah.

You know, she felt okay, but it was not the panacea that was promised.

And that's when I recognized that, oh, shit, this had nothing to do with her back.

Damn it.

And that's what started the complete spiral of...

Having us sit here today.

Why are we sitting here now?

Yeah.

So the part that I have to try not to get angry because everyone did their job to the best of their ability and everyone, no one did anything wrong.

Yeah.

No one did anything wrong.

But looking at Kissing Spine, upwards of 40% of horses are going to actually be radiographed with contact points.

All horses.

Yeah. 40%.

Yeah.

Going to radiograph with contact points.

But of that, only a small portion are actually symptomatic.

Well, it's like, I'm 28.

I have a little bit of knee arthritis.

Do I need a replacement?

No.

Like, would that actually help if I don't fix the rest of me?

No.

Exactly.

So what's the crux of it then?

This is like the biggest.

So, like, going past the radiographs, it's really quite actually tricky because some horses will radiograph and only have a couple contact points and be crippled.

Like, their back is- Super symptomatic.

Yeah.

Their back is just a disaster.

And then I've seen some horses, I have one client who has eight contact points.

Oh my.

His spine is bananas, and his back is not an issue.

He's fine.

Yeah.

He's other stuff.

He actually has elbow issues.

Oh, that's rare.

That feels like, I mean, I don't see it a lot.

Yeah.

I think it's actually a little bit more common than we give it credit for.

— Kissing Spine: More Common Than We Think?

Yeah.

I guess I've never given it that much thought.

Maybe I need to.

Maybe I need to have a new fear.

It's a new fear unlocked, right?

But yeah, I've seen some that only have a couple contact points, and they're a disaster, and then some who have a bunch, and they're totally fine.

So I think the thing to really unpack or to recognize is that Kissing Spine is secondary.

Okay.

Secondary to what?

A whole bunch of stuff.

So it's almost like a game of rule-outs.

It isn't everything.

I know.

But at least in my experience, get their feet right.

Yeah.

Get their posture right, which that's a whole thing to unpack.

They need to use their body correctly.

So I think a lot of horses are going around in the world not using their core muscles like they're supposed to.

And we think they are.

Like, I think this is, before we even go any further, this is where you need to recognize that maybe your eye isn't trained the way you think it is.

Because in the past, I don't know, like, even just the past two years, my mind has been completely reshaped in how I look at horses.

Yeah.

And it's not just, are they, you know, like, head bobbing?

Is their tail to one direction?

Is, like, the little things that we all kind of know to look for in uncomfortable horses, their head to really high, are they hollow all the time?

It's not just that, like, it's everything.

I used to think my horse was, like, born over at the knee.

Guess what?

He's not at all.

Like, he's literally not.

It's because his position was wrong.

Yeah.

And if I had recognized that for what it was ten years ago, I would probably have a very different situation on my hands.

Oh, really?

I didn't realize that he was over at the knee for that appearance.

He's not anymore.

Oh, my God.

Because I got him standing up straight.

Oh, jeez.

Because, well, that's what I was always told.

Like, he's a lovely-looking horse.

Like, he's really very pretty for such a...

He's stunning.

Yeah, a backyard-bred pony.

He's not a pony.

He's regular size.

Um, but I was told by multiple of my adults growing up, like, oh, his conformation's almost perfect.

He's just a little over at the knee.

And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

So I just need to, like, support him.

I need to make sure that he's not super heavy in the front, like, training-wise.

That's how I can support him.

It's not that simple.

And now he doesn't look over in the knee at all.

No, not at all.

What I mean is it's amazing how much we can change their body with just small postural adjustments.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's posture.

It's all posture.

And proper core development and actually developing spine-stabilizing muscles.

Yeah, that's a lot easier said than done.

But you know what?

I think it is.

It is.

I just think that the resources now, especially the resources, are more abundant.

But 10 years ago, you do ground poles.

You put them in a PSOA system.

That's all I heard.

Oh my God.

I was told to put her in a PSOA for rehab, which I did not.

— What Taylor Wishes She'd Done Differently

I did not.

Listen, there's a place for everything, but that was not...

That was not it.

It's not on my referral list.

Oh, that's so kind, Taylor.

That's how I phrase things.

If I don't like something or like whatever, I'm just like, I don't have that on my referral list, but this is on my referral list.

Oh my gosh, that's so profesh.

Right?

I asked AI how to...

How do I pull up these things?

I might not sound like a bitch.

Yeah, how do I not sound like an asshole and say something?

That's it.

That's perfect.

You get it.

It's hard because it feels like this...

I don't know.

I'm trying to think of my past self, how I would have heard this.

It feels like, oh yeah, so I just do this, and then everything will be fine.

I walk them over poles, or I do a lot of trotting over poles, and I do a lot of hills, and it's fine.

It's not that simple.

And I've realized the secret sauce is really slow, quiet work.

It is slow, quiet work.

It's way harder.

I don't know.

I'm like super over thinker, very anxious person, really fast.

I do everything fast.

My horse does everything fast.

It's so hard to do slow and controlled movements, even in hand.

I'm not talking about even, like I'm just talking about in hand, rehab, little, every single interaction I have with him now, I'm thinking about where we're standing.

Like if I'm walking him and I stop, I'll make sure I square him up.

And I'll, every single time we stop, like even if I just stop to chat with a friend or like stop to grab my saddle and I'm, he's like taking my pony for a walk with me, every single time I'm interacting with him, I'm paying attention to how he's standing.

Because it'll become muscle memory and it won't have to anymore.

And I'm noticing that more like yesterday, when I, after I brought him in from a ride, I, you know, 10 years ago, if he was all splayed in different directions, when I got off of him, I'd be like, oh yeah, he's, he's just tired.

Like, he's just cocking his hip because he's tired or he's standing with this leg out front because he's tired, whatever.

Now, I would be like, oh, fuck, I fucked it up.

Like, I thought I had a good ride, maybe I didn't.

Because when we've had a good ride, he's used his body correctly, I'll come in and he naturally is standing right.

Standing square, yeah.

He's standing square and not, till like his hocks are so close together in the back, like he's standing under himself correctly.

And I'm like, oh, yes, I win.

Like, I feel like I won the fucking lottery.

I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I think a lot of people don't recognize when you do finish an exercise or a session with your horse, their muscles should be...

They got a little pump.

They should have a pump, but it should be soft.

There shouldn't be rigidity to it.

That's such a good way of explaining it.

You know, almost like water balloon-ish.

Yes, like they feel comfortable, but fit.

Like they look fit, but when you touch them, they don't feel like...

Tension, no tension.

— Muscle Development, Posture & Standing Square

Yeah, like hard.

And they should stand square.

And the reason why it's so important that...

So standing square, like an actual table, not camped under, not camped out, not splayed out.

But that is the...

That uses the least amount of energy for them to stand, and it does not require their stabilizing muscles.

Or, sorry, they only use their stabilizing muscles to stand.

There it is.

Yeah, yeah, that's...

I was like, I don't know where you're going, Vince.

But...

Because horses really, they should...

They shouldn't have a lot of muscle definition.

They should be actually like mashed potatoes.

Yeah.

Not fat.

God no, not fat.

But there shouldn't be a lot of like...

You shouldn't be able to touch them on a part of their body and feel them like holding it with tension to keep themselves from like standing weird or falling over, or like just not being comfortable.

They should be relaxed but fit.

And that's so hard.

Like, it's not hard if you're intentional.

I think the intentionality behind it is what's hard.

Because like you were saying earlier, you know, you were really lucky in the first half of her life.

And I was as well.

I could just get on my horse and he was fucking indestructible.

He could do dumb shit and bounce back.

He could eat whatever.

Like, and that's not true.

No.

And if I had known then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have had the problems I've had, but I'm almost grateful because then...

Now we know.

Yeah.

And we've learned so much.

Like, you got a career out of it.

I got a career out of it.

Like...

Yeah.

And I actually don't know a lot of alternative failures that didn't start with their own horse having an issue.

And then they got psycho-obsessive about it.

And then have shared the love with their community and have now hundreds of clients that rely on them.

Like, that's so cool.

Yeah.

I mean, our horses are our biggest teachers.

And you even said it before, if our horse gets diagnosed with something, we become psychotic about it.

Oh, my God.

And I think after, in retrospect, looking back, I don't think Leah's back was ever really an issue.

I think we treated the radiographs and not the horse.

Oh, my gosh.

Does that make sense?

Mic drop.

And I think for her, I think she just had severe high-low.

I think she had thin soles.

I think she had subclinical laminitis.

I think she had crippling ulcers.

And she probably needed some maintenance in her hocks.

And she rode in an ill-fitting saddle for a really long time that I thought was a good-fitting saddle.

Interesting.

She rode in a poor-fitting saddle for a long time, all that stuff.

And I don't think her back was an issue at all, because when I got her back after rehab and got on her after a few rides, I was like, this is the same horse.

Nothing's different.

She wasn't explosive though, right?

Was she still refusing and bucking?

She was bucking.

Yeah, bucking was going.

Really?

Oh my god.

Yeah, the bucking never stopped.

That's so disappointing.

I can't imagine how you must have felt.

— Emotional Weight of the Journey (Part Two Teased)

Well, that's why there's going to be a part two to this.

Right.

Oh my god.

I'm totally even in my head discounting the other half of her story.

Yeah.

Because most of the answers actually came from what was recently discovered.

So nothing really came of the surgery.

So now I just have to keep her back as comfortable as I possibly can.

You addressed her hooves, and that led you down a different path.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we've talked about like, you had her, it was a problem with her feet, problem with her posture, you fixed her saddle.

Like these all feel like obvious things to us now.

As people who've been through this, I haven't been through this, but I know about it enough.

Yeah.

A little bit.

These all feel like things that could potentially be pre-treatments, like prevention methods, instead of just causes that would then lead to a problem, right?

I mean, that's, yeah, that's kind of like the point of the way that we operate now.

Yeah.

But I think it's because we've had to walk through the fire to figure out all this stuff is that prehab is like hell of a lot better than rehab.

Every damn time.

Right?

And so like, yeah, we had to fix your feet, which became my obsession, and here we are.

And I think a lot of it is more, like you said, just like prevention.

Yeah.

So this is probably going to put me in hot water, but I don't give a shit.

We start horses way too soon.

Oh, fuck yeah.

Oh, I will always talk about that.

Stop riding baby horses.

Holy shit.

God damn.

We start them way too soon and we ask way too much of them.

And but I think there's a difference in like we do need to start them.

But I think the definition of start needs to be revisited.

Oh my God.

I love how you said that.

I really do because a horse needs to have a level of fitness before you get on them.

Oh my God.

And that does not mean running them around in a circle so that they, quote, behave or understand that you're in charge or whatever the fucking bullshit is that people say.

Like that's not it.

They need to understand how to use their body before then we add a whole other living being to their back.

Horses aren't really designed, like, anatomically to carry people.

So if we're going to ask them to do it, especially young, we need to give their body a chance to get ready to do that.

And that's not just behavioral.

People think training is like, okay, so if I, you know, lunge them around enough, they'll have the cues or whatever the bullshit is.

They need to know how to use their body.

And then I would venture to guess, I mean, I've started quite a few horses, and I would love to do it again.

I haven't started a horse in years, and I would do it completely differently now.

I wrote in a clinic with the Dr.

Gert Hirschman last weekend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We had to talk about that.

We need to talk about that.

Oh, my God.

That was, that changed my life.

And that was the most beneficial riding education I've ever received.

Okay, so now I'm going to be really selfish and ask you to teach me everything that you learned.

— Key Takeaways: What Taylor Learned

I will.

And do you know what the biggest takeaway was?

Well, I mean, there's so many takeaways, but friendly hands.

And I've always prided myself in having- Yeah, you have lovely.

Thank you.

But he taught me how to use them more effectively and it was all based on balance.

Because that was the first thing he asked when I walked into the arena.

He said, what do you want to work on today?

And I said, I want to work on balance.

And apparently that was the right answer for her.

Oh, fuck yeah.

That's awesome.

I was like, I just, I need to work on balance.

You were immediately the favorite.

He was like, you're in a 19 year old wars and that was your answer.

And I said, because I'm obsessed with it.

It's never perfect.

It will never be perfect.

The second you think it is, something's going to go wrong and then you're going to be like, oh, I went, but I'm balanced.

I know what I'm doing.

No, the more I learned, the more I realized that it was just...

Same.

We're just like rushing into it.

Yep.

But for the young ones, we'll talk about Gerd's Clinic a little bit more.

It was incredible, though, but it's...

We're starting horses too soon, and we're not teaching them how to actually carry themselves, exactly what you said.

They need to learn how to balance themselves, how to stabilize their back, and how to actually use their core.

When it comes down to it, it's all their core.

Everything.

It's like Pilates.

Yeah, literally.

Pilates will fix anything.

It's all working on stabilizer muscles, which sucks because it's so hard.

Yeah, but I mean, in the end, it saves us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, and that's why kind of reframing the word start, like starting a horse.

It needs to be more of an education on, okay, this is how you hold yourself, and this is how you hold yourself for longevity and for wellness.

Yeah.

Well, I think that like a lot of people end up with throwaways because they start them too early, and they expect these high level things that their bodies are not designed to do, and then they add a person to their back, and then they're like, well, you know, they're 20, they just need to go be a kid's pony now, and then they dump their horse on someone else to deal with the like evidence of their past 20 years.

It's like, we could serve our horses so much better, we would get longer time with them comfortable if we did things right from the start.

Exactly.

Which obviously like you and I are both very lucky, we've trained our own horses from scratch, scratch.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, we've both fucked up, I'm sure.

I know I have.

I have, but yeah.

As for damn sure I have, but not everybody, you know, if you're buying a horse that's seven and has already been through it, like, that's hard.

So I feel like maybe we should talk about some resources.

So you were talking about your GERD clinic, there's, I lean a lot on Jack Ballou.

I love her.

She makes everything so easy.

— Leah Today: A Changed Horse

She has such a calming, like she looks like she's having fun, but she's also really calm about it.

She's cool.

Her horses look lovely.

She has, for those who don't know, she's she's pretty prevalent in like the rehab space, I guess I could say.

But she does a little bit of everything.

She's got multiple books for rehab, exercising, correcting postural problems that cause, quote, mystery lamenesses.

I have one.

I think it's, I read this.

I mean, I literally go to this book.

It's in my tack box.

I go to it all the time.

Because it's hard to like remember what exercises you want to do and form a fitness plan for your horse, and you kind of get lost in it sometimes.

You'll do, I know for me, I'll end up doing too much.

Yeah.

And then by the time we're done, I'm like, well, I should have stopped 20 minutes ago.

I set a timer now when we ride.

That's so smart.

I set a timer.

And I set it at 10-minute increments.

Right.

So then if I need to back off, then...

No, you have a reference of where you started at.

That makes sense.

I've been doing that at least with my warm-up so that I know I'm doing a full, solid, 10-minute marching warm-up.

Like, we'll get a little bit loose, and then we'll do a full 10-minute march, just so that...

But it's hard, because I'm like, oh yeah, it's definitely been 10 minutes, and it's been like four.

I know.

That's why I have to set a timer, because otherwise...

Yeah.

So Jack Ballou is a really good resource. 101 corrective exercises for horses.

There's 101 or 100 arena exercises by Cherry Hill.

That's a good one.

Oh, yeah.

If they're done correctly, that one has a lot more trot and canter mounted exercises, so you have to make sure you're doing it right.

Like, form is everything with this.

Do you have any other resources?

Because I feel like we've really done a good job of covering this whole thing.

I would say, so Jean-Luc Corneli, science of motion.

That man knows what he's doing.

He's quite brilliant.

And again, in retrospect, I should have just sent her to him.

We were in COVID.

I should have said, you're going to go to COVID camp with him.

Just go learn how to actually hold yourself properly.

Get your saddle fit right.

Get their mouth right.

That's a huge thing.

Dentition is huge.

Get their feet right.

Get their diet right.

I think that was a big piece.

There's a book that Gerd was really leaning on, and also Gerd himself has some brilliant literature out there.

He's written a handful of books.

But the one that he refers to the most, and it's a really hard book to read, but it's worth dragging yourself through the trenches on it.

It's called Gymnasium of the Horse, and it's by Gustav Streinbeck.

Why is it hard to read?

It's really intense.

It's super heavy, and it's like reading, like, stereo instructions.

Oh, that's exciting.

Shriveling.

But it's one of those where, like, every time you read it, you get something new from it.

Right.

You said it's Gymnasium of the Horse?

Yeah, Gymnasium of the Horse.

I think I've read the first page maybe 50 times because that's how I've had it reading it.

— Radiographs Are Essential, But Not the Full Picture

But yeah, I think the biggest takeaway from my experience with this is that radiographs are essential, but you have to look at what the radiographs are connected to.

The rest of the damn horse?

The rest of the damn horse.

And take your time.

I know that you kind of had a unique situation because it was just before COVID.

Yeah.

And you had a really supportive surgeon, but sleep on it.

Yeah.

Connect with all your resources before you make such a big decision for your animal.

Because there may be an easier non-surgical way to do this.

And that's always an option at the end.

Like, you don't have to rush into anything.

I think we're so desperate to rush into making it better that we end up stepping all over ourselves.

Yeah.

So I feel like that's a good takeaway.

In the horse community, it's really easy to feel like you have to be perfect.

Yeah.

And you have to be very defensive of what you know.

And that's not the case.

No.

You just have to surround yourself with the right people.

And once you find one, I feel like they all come trickling in.

They do.

You just kind of need to find your in.

And it's like, it takes a long time to assemble a crack team.

It does.

And now I'm going to move 800 miles away from them.

It's okay.

Well, that means that you're going to have two crack teams, because you have your crack team here, and then you're going to build yours in Texas.

I love you.

You're such a positive influence on me.

And then we're slowly going to take over the world.

But it's going to be fine.

Everything's going to be great.

Yeah.

We'll find our secret weapons.

And yeah.

Well, do you feel like we've sufficiently covered everything?

I've had so much fun.

We can probably go on for...

Well, we do have a part two.

We do have a part two.

Yeah.

A part two.

God.

Because Kissing Spine was not the answer.

That was just the beginning in her long journey.

Yeah.

So...

She likes to make sure that we're well-educated is it.

— Closing Thoughts & What's Next

That's what she's doing.

Yeah.

She just wants to make sure that you really know what you're doing.

Jesus Christ.

Oh, my God.

I don't want to have to know all these things.

But yeah, we'll unpack the rest of it next time.

But yeah.

Stay tuned for part two, guys.

All right.

Cheers.

If you or a friend have a topic, story, or case study you want us to cover in an episode, visit our website at theredmareproject.com to leave your submission, or email us at redmareproject.gmail.com.

And if you have it, please include a cute picture of the horse we will be discussing so we can make it our Facebook page profile picture.

As a reminder for listeners, this content is for educational purposes only and is not meant to diagnose or treat.

We encourage everyone to do their own research and speak with your veterinarian and care team to make sound decisions for your horse's management.

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, like, subscribe, and follow on all the platforms.

Peace.

the-red-mare-project

E10: King's (heel first) landing: King's story

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ﻿

- Intro: Welcoming Sara Hathaway & King’s Story

- Sara’s Background and King’s Origin Story

- Early Signs of Lameness

- White Line Separation, X-Rays, and Navicular Diagnosis

- Researching Navicular, Thrush, and Barefoot Rehab

- Learning to Trim and Catching the Hoof-Care Bug

- Diet, Ongoing Management, and Stable X-Rays

- Sensitivity, Fly Boots, Sugar, and the Muzzle

- Listening to Owners and Building Empathy

- From One Horse to a Hoof-Care Career

- Rehab Boarding and Farm Facilities

- Clinics and Educational Events

- Sara’s Navicular Case Checklist

- X-Rays, Individualized Trims, and Communication

- Asking the Horse and Using the Support Toolbox

- Success Stories and Hope for Navicular Horses

- King Comes Back to Sara

- Closing, Services, and Outro

About This Episode

E9: How Stella got her groove back (from MFM): Stella's story

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Intro: Welcoming Lexi Freeman & Stella's Story

— Muscle Biopsy Limitations & Building the Supplement Protocol

— Stella's Supplement Stack: Muscle EQ, Nano-E & E03

— Lexi's Journey: From Eventing to Holistic Bodywork

— Losing a Horse & Finding Stella Through a Friend

— Stella's Athletic Pedigree & Early Sport Horse Career

— Hitting a Wall: Unexplained Resistance Under Saddle

— The Search for Answers: Lost Posts & Growing Desperation

— Confirming the Diagnosis: Seeing It in the Radiographs

— Imposter Syndrome & Proving Herself as a Professional

— Building Trust with Stella Despite Setbacks

— Explosive Behavior & Parallels to Leah's Story

— The Frozen Scapula: A Major Bodywork Discovery

— Saddle Fit Breakthrough & Stella's Reaction

— Work Schedule: Never More Than Three Days in a Row

— MagnaWave: A Love-Hate Relationship

— Reading Stella's Limits: Malicious vs. Genuinely Struggling

— Well-Adjusted Doesn't Mean Perfect: Normal Horse Behavior

— MFM's Recent Discovery: Founded Only in 2017

— Bone Health, Body Awareness & Riding Philosophy

— Partnership Goals: Both Horse & Rider on the Same Page

— Closing: Location, Resources & Final Thoughts

E8: Polyneuritis Equi: Finn's story

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Intro: What Is Polyneuritis Equi & Introducing Emma

— ELISA Testing, Blood Work & Autoimmune Basics

— Nervous System Overload: Modern Horses & Immune Disease

— PNE Symptoms: Hind End Neuropathy & Cranial Nerve Signs

— Emma's Background & Finding Finn in Florida

— Finn Arrives: Easy Young Horse with Big Promise

— First Red Flags: Behavior Changes & Shoeing Issues

— Muscle Atrophy Absent, But Something Isn't Right

— Ruling Out Wobblers, Injections & Chasing Answers

— Positive EHV-1 Test & Narrowing Down the Diagnosis

— Shoulder Suspicion, Dressage Saddle & Gradual Improvement

— Finn Goes Down Again: A New Crisis Erupts

— Dr. Divers & the Pathogenes Lab: Controversial but Crucial

— Finding the Right Medication: Flare-Ups & Breakthroughs

— Pulling the Shoes: Starting the Barefoot Journey

— First Show Back: A Major Milestone for Emma & Finn

— Managing PNE Long-Term: Diet, Feet & Ongoing Care

— Show Horse Life & Balancing Competitive Goals with Health

— Hope for Other Owners: Finn's Story as a Diagnostic Map

— Hope for Other Owners: Finn's Story as a Diagnostic Map

E7: Welcome to the Thunderdome

ABOUT THIS EPISODE ﻿

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

— Welcome to the Thunderdome: Surviving Summer in the South

— Fly Management: Boots, Masks & the Case for Covering Up

— Stabling & Turnout Strategies in Extreme Heat

— Summer Threats: Bugs, Bots & What to Watch For

— Sweet Itch & Insect Hypersensitivity in Horses

— Hoof Care in Summer: Farrier Visits & Seasonal Changes

— Glue-On Shoes, Hoof Hardeners & Summer Hoof Management

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT